Gunfighters and notches in grips

Jim McDougall · 26th July 2009, 07:05 AM

Finally found "Triggernometry: A Gallery of Gunfighters" by Eugene Cunningham, which is apparantly a 1996 reprint of the 1934 original, with introduction by eminent gunfighter historian Joseph Rosa (author of 'The Gunfighters').

The chapter on John Wesley Hardin is indeed titled "Forty Notches" and on p.40, the author notes "...he would not be 18 until May 26th, but already he had notches on his guns-eight of them!".
On p.56, "...the famous gunman who had forty notches on his weapons".

In the introduction, obviously written some 62 years after the original work,
Rosa notes (p.xxi) that "...John Wesley Hardin was credited with forty notches (not that there is any evidence that anyone really notched pistols)".
On p.xxii he notes further that Hardin apparantly had concerns as he was finally released from prison about his faded reputation, and had written his autobiography which apparantly suggested the notches. The work was published posthumously (he was killed the following year) and apparantly the suggestion remained, as recounted by Cunningham in his 1934 work.

In another interesting twist, having to do with the rather ridiculous modern manner of firing guns held sideways, in so called gangsta style, I came across some intriguing information, and thought I would include it here as a point of interest.
In references to this method of firing, mostly about looking cool rather than any effective advantage, and which seems to have evolved over about the last 15 years, there is some much older history to this.

Apparantly the old M1898 Broomhandle Mauser pistols found favor in China (as well as Argentina) and were produced at Sichuan arsenal, later Hanyan arsenal beginning about 1920 as the C-96 version. These found use from the pirates we have been discussing on another thread (hu die shuang dao butterfly knives) to the mounted Manchurian bandits and in many groups from the 1920's until c.1949.

It was found that they could throw the weapon up quickly held sideways, index finger stabilizing and be instinctively pointing at the target, also used full automatic unleashing a horizontal traverse fire. Also, and most importantly, the casings were ejected straight upward, so these were insured to clear the weapon rather than potentially jamming.

I am unclear on how this style of shooting might have transmitted to the pop culture in todays training films (movies) but suspect perhaps action movies of the 80's, possibly John Woo ? In any case, I thought it was interesting as a sort of addendum to the gunfighter theme.

All best regards,
Jim

Pukka Bundook · 26th July 2009, 04:11 PM

Hello Jim,

I'm pleased you found further information, And the book, "Triggerometry"!

Ours was an old falling apart copy, when I was a kid.
I remember the auther telling the reader to practice such things as the "Road-agents spin" with the pistol empty,...or over a bed!

I suppose John Wesley-Hardin May have notched up 40 kills, but not on any of his pistols,................Then again, you know Some pistols have what we regard as chequered grips....(!)

Interesting history on holding the pistol sideways.

It would be interesting to know if the Broomhandle will indeed traverse sideways on full auto. I think it may not, as a gun always recoils away from gravity for some reason, so a pistol on single shot will always recoil upwards, even if held sideways.
(I remember a case in the dim and dusty, of a chap having to fire his pistol in a narrow cave opening, and held it siedeways, but still mashed his hand against the roof...)

Back to "Triggerometry", one of the chaps I remember best was old sheriff Stoudenmire, Tho' I may have spelled his name a bit wrong, like I did on WesTley -Hardin!

Best wishes Jim!

Richard.

Matchlock · 26th July 2009, 04:27 PM

Hi Guys,

I have been trying to refresh your memories, so here the book is, ready to read on

http://books.google.de/books?id=tDps...sult&resnum=12

Best,
Michael

aerosick · 26th July 2009, 04:31 PM

Richard,

That was probably Marshal Dallas Stoudenmire. The town of El Paso, Texas hired him and then was too afraid to fire him. They created a monster!

Marshal Dallas Stoudenmire

Billy

Jim McDougall · 26th July 2009, 04:42 PM

Thanks so much Richard, the info on "Triggernometry" which led me to the data from Rosa's "The Gunfighters", a book I have been going crazy trying to find here in the bus! I know I have it, but where!?

In it is Rosa's research on the 'road agent spin' and the apocryphal tale about Hardin and Hickok, in which Hardin supposedly pulled this on him....lots of loose ends in that one as well. It seems there is every bit as much myth in this wild period of American history of just over a hundred years ago as in medieval folklore.

True on the checkered grips, good thought, then theres the old saw describing 'a checkered past'

fun to look into those old sayings.

Good note on Dallas Stoudenmire (you got it right) the El Paso lawman, talk about confusing, El Paso- Dallas? I think you must have been thinking of Westley-Richards, the gun, when you wrote John Wesley Hardin

after all this talk on guns.

Interesting thoughts on dynamics and the note on recoil, it seems odd that held sideways the gun would recoil upwards in the same way as held traditionally. I really know so little on guns, and am not a shooter any more than a swordsman, I only study history of the weapons, but find these kinds of details fascinating on all weapons.

Thank you again for responding, its always great to have you in on posts, and sure have missed you around, so welcome back !!

All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 26th July 2009, 04:47 PM

Hey Michael and Bill, just came back and saw you guys here!!! just crossed posts. Thanks so much for coming in on this and for the links. Even though I had already found it, I really appreciate you guys and the backup, thank you so much.

I know this topic is way off from what we usually discuss around here, but thought it would be fun visiting the Wild West a bit, and I'm headed for El Paso, so in the mood! Dont know how much time I'll have there, or if I'll get to Tombstone this time, but just being in the area is great.

All the best,
Jim

Billy, where ya at in SoCal? I grew up in Orange County......lots of history around there too, Wyatt Earp is buried in Colton.

aerosick · 26th July 2009, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Billy, where ya at in SoCal? I grew up in Orange County......lots of history around there too, Wyatt Earp is buried in Colton.

Jim,

I'm in Tehachapi at 4,000' elevation, 2 hours north of LA and 45 miles east of Bakersfield. Have you heard of the Tehachapi Loop? It's an engineering marvel to railroad buffs.

Wyatt Earp outlived all of them! Who would have thought it possible...

Billy

Berkley · 26th July 2009, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

I remember the auther telling the reader to practice such things as the "Road-agents spin" with the pistol empty,...or over a bed!

Quote:

Yes, Mr. Hardin was certainly a quick man with his guns. I have seen him unload his guns, put them in his pocket, walk across the room and then suddenly spring to one side facing around and quick as a flash he would have a gun in each hand clicking so fast that the clicks sounded like a rattle machine. He would place his guns inside his breeches in front with the muzzles out. Then he would jerk them out by the muzzle and with a toss as quick as lightning grasp them by the handle and have them clicking in unison. He showed me how he once killed two men in that way."

Hardin's landlady, Mrs Willams of the Herndon House, and

Quote:

Wild Bill came in and said we were making too much noise and told me to pull off my pistols until I got ready to go out of town. I told him I was ready to go now, but did not propose to put up my pistols, go or no go. He went out and I followed him....
Wild Bill whirled around and met me. He said, "...what are you doing with those pistols on?"
I said, "I am just taking in the town."
He pulled his pistol and said "Take those pistols off. I arrest you."
I said all right and pulled them out of the scabbard, but while he was reaching for them, I reversed them and whirled them over on him with the muzzles in his face, springing back at the same time.I told him to put his pistols up, which he did. I cursed him for a long-haired scoundrel that would shoot a boy with his back to him (as I had been told he intended to do me). He said, "Little Arkansaw, you have been wrongly informed."
I shouted, "This is my fight, and I'll kill the first man that fires a gun."
Bill said, "You are the gamest and quickest boy I ever saw. Let us compromise this matter and I will be your friend. Let us go in here and take a drink, as I want to talk to you and give you some advice."
At first I thought he might be trying to get the drop on me, but he finally convinced me of his good intentions, and we went in and took a drink. We went into a private room and I had a long talk with him and we came out friends.

The Life of John Wesley Hardin As Written by Himself, University of Oklahoma Press (1961), both quoted in The Last Gunfighter: John Wesley Hardin, Richard C. Marohn, Creative Publishing Company, 1995.
Dr Marohn had the definitive private collection of Hardin firearms and memorabilia, shown in great detail in The Estate of Richard C. Marohn, M.D., Butterfield & Butterfield 1996. His biography of Hardin contains a whole chapter on "Guns of a Gunfighter". There is no mention of notches, nor a notch to be seen on any of Hardin's guns.
Jim, while in El Paso you might want to visit the site of Hardin's death at the Acme Saloon, corner of San Antonio and Mesa or law office at 200 1/2 El Paso Street; his grave is in Concordia Cemetery.

Jim McDougall · 26th July 2009, 08:28 PM

Fantastic information Berkeley!!! Thank you so much, and I wish I would have time to stop there. We are on pretty tight schedule with repairs coming up in Tucson, so looks like we roll through. Gonna be some long driving, it takes days just to get outa Texas!!

Great quotes out of Hardin's book, and it does seem that there is quite a basis in fact about these guys and thier dexterity with thier guns. I think Rosa has done some of the most amazing research standing on the Wild West gunfighters, and has shown that at least thier abilities were soundly recounted, the stories...well quite a lot of range thanks to the ambitious writers and storytellers.

Billy, I have heard of course a lot of Tehachapi, but never really have been there. That loop sounds unbelievable, and no wonder the railroad buffs are so excited about it. I can well understand about the climb though, driving this thing through mountains is a real challenge, and hard to imagine needing an altimeter in a road vehicle, but you really do. Mostly you're watching the tachometer, grade brake and overdrive, and its quite a challenge.

There is so much history out there in the Mojave, I remember one research project years ago on a sunken silver ship in one dried up lake bed, I think it was the Mollie Stevens. Think I'd like to see Tehachapi now that you bring it up...sounds fascinating.

All best regards,
Jim

Berkely I sent you a PM

aerosick · 26th July 2009, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Billy, I have heard of course a lot of Tehachapi, but never really have been there. That loop sounds unbelievable, and no wonder the railroad buffs are so excited about it. I can well understand about the climb though, driving this thing through mountains is a real challenge, and hard to imagine needing an altimeter in a road vehicle, but you really do. Mostly you're watching the tachometer, grade brake and overdrive, and its quite a challenge.

There is so much history out there in the Mojave, I remember one research project years ago on a sunken silver ship in one dried up lake bed, I think it was the Mollie Stevens. Think I'd like to see Tehachapi now that you bring it up...sounds fascinating.

Jim,

Tehachapi is on Hwy 58.

That dried up lake bed is Owens Lake in Owens Valley. The City of LA Dept of Water & Power has started refilling that lake after many lawsuits.

You can read about it HERE and if you Click on the Tab "More Travel Fun" you can Click on "Route 66". You might find something useful there.

Billy

potapych · 7th August 2009, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

There is only one gun I can think of off-hand with notches, in this case filed into the side of the trigger-guard, and this was from an earlier time, and was a full-stock plains rifle owned at one time by Joe Meek.

Hi Kids,

Reading through this thread I was reminded that I have a similarly notched trigger guard. The weapon is a half-stock .54 Cal. Plains Rifle. I often wondered what their significance was and surmise they may represent grizzlies, anything else would have been too common a target in those days, (including, unfortunately, Native Americans...) Personally, I just don't see mountain men, people of the stature of Joe Meek, notching their guns to commemorate killing a fellow human.

Ray

VANDOO · 7th August 2009, 03:58 PM

I TALKED TO A FRIEND OF MINE WHO WRITES BOOKS ON OUTLAWS MOSTLY THE MORE FAMOUS ONES. HE SAID HE WAS SURPRIZED WHEN HE STARTED DOING RESEARCH FOR HIS BOOKS YEARS AGO THAT THERE WERE NOT LOTS OF INSTANCES OF NOTCHES ON GUNS. HE SAID IT WAS MOSTLY JUST POPULAR FICTION MADE UP BY WRITERS OF THE TIMES. HE SAID OUT OF OVER ONE THOUSAND OUTLAWS AND GUNMEN HE RESEARCHED THERE WERE ONLY TWO DOCUMENTED CASES BUT THEY WERE MINOR OUTLAWS AND NOT ONES HE USED IN HIS BOOKS SO COULD NOT GIVE ME ANY DETAILS.
IN CASE SOMEONE LIKES TO READ UP ON GUNFIGHTERS AND OUTLAWS I WILL LIST TWO OF HIS BOOKS
1. 100 OKLAHOMA OUTLAWS, GANGSTERS AND LAWMEN 1839-1939, BY DAN ANDERSON WITH LAURENCE YADON

2. 200 TEXAS OUTLAWS AND LAWMEN 1835-1935, BY LAURENCE J. YADON WITH DAN ANDERSON

HE HAS WRITTEN OTHER BOOKS ON THE WEST AND THE TWO AUTHORS OFTEN COLLABORATE ON REASERCH AND WRITEING PROJECTS. THEY ONLY WRITE STORIES THAT THEY CAN BACK UP WITH FACTS SO THESE BOOKS ARE NOT FICTION AND DON'T READ LIKE A WESTERN OR ROMANCE NOVEL. IF THEY USE SOMETHING THAT CAN NOT BE CONFIRMED THEY WILL SO STATE IN THE BOOK.
UNFORTUNATELY HE DIDN'T REMEMBER THE INFO ON THE TWO CASES OF NOTCHES IN GUNS BUT SAID HE WOULD LOOK AND SEE IF HE COULD FIND IT WHEN TIME PERMITS.

Jim McDougall · 7th August 2009, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by potapych

Hi Kids,

Reading through this thread I was reminded that I have a similarly notched trigger guard. The weapon is a half-stock .54 Cal. Plains Rifle. I often wondered what their significance was and surmise they may represent grizzlies, anything else would have been too common a target in those days, (including, unfortunately, Native Americans...) Personally, I just don't see mountain men, people of the stature of Joe Meek, notching their guns to commemorate killing a fellow human.

Ray

It's great to see this thread revived, thank you so much Ray! and very well observed on the rather unseemly and despicable thought of personal bravado at the expense of the loss of a human life. In most cases, I think this is the proper perspective, and even one of probably the most ruthless of the renowned gunfighters, John Wesley Hardin, we have seen that his actual weapons did not bear notches on them. This emphasizes the distinct licence used by enthusiastic writers to dramatize and sensationalize thier work.

As also noted earlier, Wyatt Earp, when asked about notches in his gun by one such inquisitive writer, became enraged at such a suggestion and roared, "only a tinhorn would do such a thing!".

Thank you for sharing the beauty of a Plains rifle! and for showing these curious triggerguard notches so clearly. I do believe these are likely marks for downing a formidable predator such as a grizzly, rather than a tally simply for game, in which case the stock removal from the guard would probably eliminate the guard altogether.

Now in the case of earlier mention of grisly (the other kind) tallies, in which certain frontiersmen counted scalps taken as trophies in combat against American Indian warriors, the unfortunate practice that was brought to them with European contact, I believe there were probably instances of this.
In these cases, the stock was tallied, not the triggerguard.

I believe that the marks centered on the triggerguard were placed there strategically as representation of something, and at the trigger location, it would represent the key instrument of the deadly achievement in use of the gun, the trigger.

It seems there have often been suggestions of notching or deliberate markings of this kind being measurement of some kind or indicators placed pragmatically for some now unknown use. One rather more elaborate example of such key marking were the scales found on usually Italian stiletto blades, later discovered to be measurements for powder charges for gunners.
Obviously that is not the case here, but mentioned only as illustration to describe such practices.

Do you think there could be any such value implied in trigger notches? I know little on guns and actual shooting, and would not know of any practice or function that would require actual marking for use, such as positioning of the trigger itself?

Thank you again Ray!
All the best,
Jim

26th July 2009, 04:27 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Triggernometry Hi Guys, I have been trying to refresh your memories, so here the book is, ready to read on http://books.google.de/books?id=tDps...sult&resnum=12 Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 26th July 2009 at 06:09 PM.

26th July 2009, 07:05 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,278	Finally found "Triggernometry: A Gallery of Gunfighters" by Eugene Cunningham, which is apparantly a 1996 reprint of the 1934 original, with introduction by eminent gunfighter historian Joseph Rosa (author of 'The Gunfighters'). The chapter on John Wesley Hardin is indeed titled "Forty Notches" and on p.40, the author notes "...he would not be 18 until May 26th, but already he had notches on his guns-eight of them!". On p.56, "...the famous gunman who had forty notches on his weapons". In the introduction, obviously written some 62 years after the original work, Rosa notes (p.xxi) that "...John Wesley Hardin was credited with forty notches (not that there is any evidence that anyone really notched pistols)". On p.xxii he notes further that Hardin apparantly had concerns as he was finally released from prison about his faded reputation, and had written his autobiography which apparantly suggested the notches. The work was published posthumously (he was killed the following year) and apparantly the suggestion remained, as recounted by Cunningham in his 1934 work. In another interesting twist, having to do with the rather ridiculous modern manner of firing guns held sideways, in so called gangsta style, I came across some intriguing information, and thought I would include it here as a point of interest. In references to this method of firing, mostly about looking cool rather than any effective advantage, and which seems to have evolved over about the last 15 years, there is some much older history to this. Apparantly the old M1898 Broomhandle Mauser pistols found favor in China (as well as Argentina) and were produced at Sichuan arsenal, later Hanyan arsenal beginning about 1920 as the C-96 version. These found use from the pirates we have been discussing on another thread (hu die shuang dao butterfly knives) to the mounted Manchurian bandits and in many groups from the 1920's until c.1949. It was found that they could throw the weapon up quickly held sideways, index finger stabilizing and be instinctively pointing at the target, also used full automatic unleashing a horizontal traverse fire. Also, and most importantly, the casings were ejected straight upward, so these were insured to clear the weapon rather than potentially jamming. I am unclear on how this style of shooting might have transmitted to the pop culture in todays training films (movies) but suspect perhaps action movies of the 80's, possibly John Woo ? In any case, I thought it was interesting as a sort of addendum to the gunfighter theme. All best regards, Jim

26th July 2009, 04:11 PM	#2
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Hello Jim, I'm pleased you found further information, And the book, "Triggerometry"! Ours was an old falling apart copy, when I was a kid. I remember the auther telling the reader to practice such things as the "Road-agents spin" with the pistol empty,...or over a bed! I suppose John Wesley-Hardin May have notched up 40 kills, but not on any of his pistols,................Then again, you know Some pistols have what we regard as chequered grips....(!) Interesting history on holding the pistol sideways. It would be interesting to know if the Broomhandle will indeed traverse sideways on full auto. I think it may not, as a gun always recoils away from gravity for some reason, so a pistol on single shot will always recoil upwards, even if held sideways. (I remember a case in the dim and dusty, of a chap having to fire his pistol in a narrow cave opening, and held it siedeways, but still mashed his hand against the roof...) Back to "Triggerometry", one of the chaps I remember best was old sheriff Stoudenmire, Tho' I may have spelled his name a bit wrong, like I did on WesTley -Hardin! Best wishes Jim! Richard.

26th July 2009, 04:31 PM	#4
aerosick Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Southern California, USA Posts: 25	Richard, That was probably Marshal Dallas Stoudenmire. The town of El Paso, Texas hired him and then was too afraid to fire him. They created a monster! Marshal Dallas Stoudenmire Billy

26th July 2009, 04:42 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,278	Thanks so much Richard, the info on "Triggernometry" which led me to the data from Rosa's "The Gunfighters", a book I have been going crazy trying to find here in the bus! I know I have it, but where!? In it is Rosa's research on the 'road agent spin' and the apocryphal tale about Hardin and Hickok, in which Hardin supposedly pulled this on him....lots of loose ends in that one as well. It seems there is every bit as much myth in this wild period of American history of just over a hundred years ago as in medieval folklore. True on the checkered grips, good thought, then theres the old saw describing 'a checkered past' fun to look into those old sayings. Good note on Dallas Stoudenmire (you got it right) the El Paso lawman, talk about confusing, El Paso- Dallas? I think you must have been thinking of Westley-Richards, the gun, when you wrote John Wesley Hardin after all this talk on guns. Interesting thoughts on dynamics and the note on recoil, it seems odd that held sideways the gun would recoil upwards in the same way as held traditionally. I really know so little on guns, and am not a shooter any more than a swordsman, I only study history of the weapons, but find these kinds of details fascinating on all weapons. Thank you again for responding, its always great to have you in on posts, and sure have missed you around, so welcome back !! All the best, Jim

26th July 2009, 04:47 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,278	Hey Michael and Bill, just came back and saw you guys here!!! just crossed posts. Thanks so much for coming in on this and for the links. Even though I had already found it, I really appreciate you guys and the backup, thank you so much. I know this topic is way off from what we usually discuss around here, but thought it would be fun visiting the Wild West a bit, and I'm headed for El Paso, so in the mood! Dont know how much time I'll have there, or if I'll get to Tombstone this time, but just being in the area is great. All the best, Jim Billy, where ya at in SoCal? I grew up in Orange County......lots of history around there too, Wyatt Earp is buried in Colton.

26th July 2009, 08:28 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,278	Fantastic information Berkeley!!! Thank you so much, and I wish I would have time to stop there. We are on pretty tight schedule with repairs coming up in Tucson, so looks like we roll through. Gonna be some long driving, it takes days just to get outa Texas!! Great quotes out of Hardin's book, and it does seem that there is quite a basis in fact about these guys and thier dexterity with thier guns. I think Rosa has done some of the most amazing research standing on the Wild West gunfighters, and has shown that at least thier abilities were soundly recounted, the stories...well quite a lot of range thanks to the ambitious writers and storytellers. Billy, I have heard of course a lot of Tehachapi, but never really have been there. That loop sounds unbelievable, and no wonder the railroad buffs are so excited about it. I can well understand about the climb though, driving this thing through mountains is a real challenge, and hard to imagine needing an altimeter in a road vehicle, but you really do. Mostly you're watching the tachometer, grade brake and overdrive, and its quite a challenge. There is so much history out there in the Mojave, I remember one research project years ago on a sunken silver ship in one dried up lake bed, I think it was the Mollie Stevens. Think I'd like to see Tehachapi now that you bring it up...sounds fascinating. All best regards, Jim Berkely I sent you a PM

7th August 2009, 03:58 PM	#12
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I TALKED TO A FRIEND OF MINE WHO WRITES BOOKS ON OUTLAWS MOSTLY THE MORE FAMOUS ONES. HE SAID HE WAS SURPRIZED WHEN HE STARTED DOING RESEARCH FOR HIS BOOKS YEARS AGO THAT THERE WERE NOT LOTS OF INSTANCES OF NOTCHES ON GUNS. HE SAID IT WAS MOSTLY JUST POPULAR FICTION MADE UP BY WRITERS OF THE TIMES. HE SAID OUT OF OVER ONE THOUSAND OUTLAWS AND GUNMEN HE RESEARCHED THERE WERE ONLY TWO DOCUMENTED CASES BUT THEY WERE MINOR OUTLAWS AND NOT ONES HE USED IN HIS BOOKS SO COULD NOT GIVE ME ANY DETAILS. IN CASE SOMEONE LIKES TO READ UP ON GUNFIGHTERS AND OUTLAWS I WILL LIST TWO OF HIS BOOKS 1. 100 OKLAHOMA OUTLAWS, GANGSTERS AND LAWMEN 1839-1939, BY DAN ANDERSON WITH LAURENCE YADON 2. 200 TEXAS OUTLAWS AND LAWMEN 1835-1935, BY LAURENCE J. YADON WITH DAN ANDERSON HE HAS WRITTEN OTHER BOOKS ON THE WEST AND THE TWO AUTHORS OFTEN COLLABORATE ON REASERCH AND WRITEING PROJECTS. THEY ONLY WRITE STORIES THAT THEY CAN BACK UP WITH FACTS SO THESE BOOKS ARE NOT FICTION AND DON'T READ LIKE A WESTERN OR ROMANCE NOVEL. IF THEY USE SOMETHING THAT CAN NOT BE CONFIRMED THEY WILL SO STATE IN THE BOOK. UNFORTUNATELY HE DIDN'T REMEMBER THE INFO ON THE TWO CASES OF NOTCHES IN GUNS BUT SAID HE WOULD LOOK AND SEE IF HE COULD FIND IT WHEN TIME PERMITS.