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23rd July 2009, 05:15 AM
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#1 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,247
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No good examples, but anyone who is in LA should check out the Autry Museum. If memory serves, it has a large collection of western guns on display, and it would be a good place to check on the story.
Best, F |
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23rd July 2009, 01:06 PM
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#2 |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,278
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Hi Fearn,
Thanks very much for that excellent suggestion! I always very much appreciate the way you always step in to help out, whether you add a simple and astute observation or more substantial text, you're always there, and keepin' it real. Means a lot. I have always wanted to visit that museum, and perhaps one of these days, the 'bus' will be in that neck of the woods. Right now moving through Texas and headed for Arizona. Whenever I head back toward the southwest, my interest in the wild west kicks up! Along the way I have at times seen some of the gunfighters guns....one of Billy the Kids guns was actually on loan at one RV park! Of course, as I have seen noted, if Billy ever owned even half of the guns claimed to be his...he wouldnt be able to get on a horse  The key thing is that I have yet to see notches on any of the guns that are soundly provenanced to any of the well known gunfighters, though I did find some reference to what sounds like a cliche' in one case. The guy's name was Frank Eaton with the rather corny sounding sobriquet, 'Pistol Pete', and had 11 notches in his Peacemaker's grips. It seems he came later, and most likely adopted the 'tinhorn' tradition from tales he had heard from the sensationalized accounts about gunfighters. The name Pistol Pete sounds like something out of the old 1950's westerns. All the best, and thanks again, Jim |
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23rd July 2009, 02:11 PM
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#3 | |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Austin, Texas USA
Posts: 257
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Quote:
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23rd July 2009, 02:18 PM
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#4 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 25
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Quote:
Billy |
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23rd July 2009, 05:14 PM
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#5 |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,278
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Great input guys!!!
Kisak, it absolutely does seem that the lore of arms and armour is wrought with all manner of these myths and legends. I've always thought the fun is to find out the truth behind them, always fascinating. Berkeley, thanks so much for mentioning the Texas Rangers Museum, which is absolutely overwhelming. I think my favorite story sums it up; There was a huge riot that broke out in one small Texas town, fighting, shooting and complete chaos. In the midst of the melee, the sheriff looked in disbelief at the single Texas Ranger that ride up in answer to his call for help....the sheriff exclaimed, "they only sent one Ranger!!??". The Ranger calmly replied, "..theres only one riot aint there?". The whole museum was great, the incredible cannon of a handgun that made Dirty Harry's Magnum look like a popgun was the Walker Colt. ..huge!! Hi Billy, (gotta love that Aerosick handle 40 yrs with the airlines, well known believe me)!! Thanks for the link to the Gene Autry, and welcome to the forums. I've never been to the museum there but hope to get there one day. Thanks again guys!! All the best, Jim |
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23rd July 2009, 07:31 PM
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#6 |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,138
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I WILL CHECK AROUND IN THE MUSEUMS NEARBY AS SEVERAL HAVE A LARGE COLLECTION OF FIREARMS. THE BEST FOR THAT LOCALLY ARE 1. THE J.M.DAVIS GUN MUSEUM, 2 THE WILL RODGERS MUSEUM AND 3. WOLLAROC MUSEUM. PERHAPS I WILL RUN ACROSS SOME INFORMATION THERE AS I HAVE CONNECTIONS WITH THOSE THREE.
AS TO KEEPING A TALLY OF ENEMYS KILLED IT IS AN OLD TRADITION PREDATING THE WRITTEN LANGUAGE. HEADHUNTING , SCALP LOCKS, BONE TOOLS, WEAPONS AND DRINKING CUPS WERE ALL SORT OF A TALLY OF ONES VICTIMS AS WELL AS A MARK OF THAT WARRIORS STATUS AND ABILITYS. IN MODERN TIMES ONE HAS ONLY TO LOOK AT THE FIGHTER PLANES AND BOMBERS AS WELL AS SUBMARINES AND SHIPS TO FIND A TALLY OF ENEMYS VANQUISHED. THE IDEA OF AN ACE IS LIKE THE IDEA OF A NUMBER ONE HEADHUNTER AS THE NUMBER OF KILLS DETERMINES THE STATUS AND SKILL OF THE WARRIOR. AND WE CALL OURSELVES CIVILIZED BELOW THE THIN PATINA THE HUMAN RACE IS STILL MOSTLY TRIBAL DEEP DOWN AND THE CIVILIZED PART IS ONLY SKIN DEEP. 
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25th July 2009, 03:11 PM
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#7 |
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Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 803
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Hello Jim,
Sorry I have not been around much. Work seems to get in the way! Re. notches, I had an old book on gunfighters etc called "triggerometry" if I remember right! Must have been written in the 40's or before. It had a chapter on John Westley-Hardin, called; "40 notches" from his most likely dime-store career, and supposedly 40 kills. That's about as close as I can come with any actual evidence!! There is only one gun I can think of off-hand with notches, in this case filed into the side of the trigger-guard, and this was from an earlier time, and was a full-stock plains rifle owned at one time by Joe Meek. If I remeber right, it has an inscription on it in German, saying it was "for the defence of (German) Immigrants in the US (Can't remember if a state was mentioned, it May have been Utah) Wether it got it's notches at the hands of the original Teutonic custodian, or at Joe's hands I can't say. Neither do I know wether the notches stood for deer,...... or hostile Indians. Anyway Jim, That's all I can contribute. A gun with notches, yes, but that's all. Now, I Do have an old ww1 era kukri with 2 notches, but that's different, and about as questionable!! Best wishes, Richard. |
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25th July 2009, 04:47 PM
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#8 | |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,278
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Quote:
Its great to have you back! Missed ya around here. Thanks so much for the great input, and these kinds of references are exactly what I was looking for. While it seems fairly certain that the gunfighters themselves did not appear to have notched grips for 'kills', it is interesting to see what references, resources or stories might have perpetuated the myth. It seems I have heard of that book 'Triggernometry' but cannot place it at the moment. As we begin to head back toward the Southwest, my fascination with this western lore is always energized, and the mention of John Wesley Hardin especially, as we get closer to El Paso. I found some interesting material in the unbelievably researched and beautifully illustrated "The Peacemakers" by R.L.Wilson(1992). This rather heavy book is an absolute must for anybody interested in the Wild West, and it is a virtual museum, as the photos of the actual weapons are so clear its like actually holding them. It would seem that the stories about Hardin's 40 notches are yet another colorful embellishment by authors in adding sensational dimension to thier subject. In Wilson's book, on page 175-176, three of Hardin's guns are shown: Single Action Army #126680....no notches Colt Lightning #68837, ivory grips....no notches Colt Lightning #73728, used by Hardin in holdup at Gem Saloon, El Paso in May, 1895...............................no notches Smith & Wesson .44 double action Frontier #352, the one Hardin was carrying when he was killed at Acme Saloon, El Paso in 1895......no notches Wilson discusses notching as follows on p.200; "....whether or not guns were notched for each man killed, is an often asked question. Occasionally a 19th century firearm is located with notched markings, but the writer has yet to see a historically associated handgun of a prominant lawman, gunfighter or outlaw-known to have been a mankiller-boasting notches". He does note that notches are sometimes seen on hunting firearms, most likely of course for downed game, however an interesting reference to Thomas French of the 7th cavalry, and with Reno at Little Big Horn, claimed that he had a .50 Cal. Springfield on which he carved notches on the stock for each warrior he had killed. There is no further detail or illustration of this weapon, which must be somewhere, as he did survive the battle. The rifle owned by Joe Meek is an interesting example, and I had not heard of trigger guards being notched. It does seem that, again, there were some instances of notching of frontier longarms, for scalps taken. While this kind of 'tallying' seems in accord with that rather gruesome practice, it does not seem that the gunfighters wished to pronounce thier 'victories' in the later Wild West. I personally believe their notoriety was more the product of circumstance, and they typically reluctantly accepted the celebrity afforded them by enthusiastic admirers. It would seem that they allowed these rather embellished reputations more as a survival posture, in maintaining a formidable figure in avoiding confrontations than as some sort of bravado. Naturally, some became caught up in it eventually, such as Hickok and some others, but many would probably have like to be just left alone. I'm really glad you joined in Richard, and thanks again for adding these great notes. I've got to see if I can find that 'Triggernometry'. You have to admit, these 1940's and 50's books on these subjects really had flair! I'll never forget the run on research that came out of the book of those times on the Bowie knife, "The Iron Mistress".....there was even a movie with Alan Ladd. Great stuff! All the best, Jim |
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26th July 2009, 07:05 AM
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#9 |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,278
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Finally found "Triggernometry: A Gallery of Gunfighters" by Eugene Cunningham, which is apparantly a 1996 reprint of the 1934 original, with introduction by eminent gunfighter historian Joseph Rosa (author of 'The Gunfighters').
The chapter on John Wesley Hardin is indeed titled "Forty Notches" and on p.40, the author notes "...he would not be 18 until May 26th, but already he had notches on his guns-eight of them!". On p.56, "...the famous gunman who had forty notches on his weapons". In the introduction, obviously written some 62 years after the original work, Rosa notes (p.xxi) that "...John Wesley Hardin was credited with forty notches (not that there is any evidence that anyone really notched pistols)". On p.xxii he notes further that Hardin apparantly had concerns as he was finally released from prison about his faded reputation, and had written his autobiography which apparantly suggested the notches. The work was published posthumously (he was killed the following year) and apparantly the suggestion remained, as recounted by Cunningham in his 1934 work. In another interesting twist, having to do with the rather ridiculous modern manner of firing guns held sideways, in so called gangsta style, I came across some intriguing information, and thought I would include it here as a point of interest. In references to this method of firing, mostly about looking cool rather than any effective advantage, and which seems to have evolved over about the last 15 years, there is some much older history to this. Apparantly the old M1898 Broomhandle Mauser pistols found favor in China (as well as Argentina) and were produced at Sichuan arsenal, later Hanyan arsenal beginning about 1920 as the C-96 version. These found use from the pirates we have been discussing on another thread (hu die shuang dao butterfly knives) to the mounted Manchurian bandits and in many groups from the 1920's until c.1949. It was found that they could throw the weapon up quickly held sideways, index finger stabilizing and be instinctively pointing at the target, also used full automatic unleashing a horizontal traverse fire. Also, and most importantly, the casings were ejected straight upward, so these were insured to clear the weapon rather than potentially jamming. I am unclear on how this style of shooting might have transmitted to the pop culture in todays training films (movies) but suspect perhaps action movies of the 80's, possibly John Woo ? In any case, I thought it was interesting as a sort of addendum to the gunfighter theme. All best regards, Jim |
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