Interesting Spanish Canary Islands Punal

[Chris Evans]

Ho Gonzalo,

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Please let me make some precisions:

1.- In Mexico the spanish is called ´spanish, or instead. ´´castilian´.

I think that to this day, `Castellano' (English:Castillian) is still the correct term for what commonly passes for the vulgate `Spanish', though most whom I converse with, including MS Word, fail to make this distinction. Decades ago, anyone with a pretence to an education would never say "I speak Spanish", rather than "I speak Castillian" - It would appear to me that this convention is fading.

Just can't help feeling that Franco may have had something to do with the vigorous upholding of `Castillian', to counter the regionalist/secessionist tendencies in Spain, but I add that this is mere guessing on my part

2.- The differences among those weapons or tools, are not a matter of frivolous elitism, or aesthetics, but instead, come from their morphology.

You are spot on and this is beyond dispute.

However, illiteracy in Spain and in South America, was extremely widespread right up to WWII, especially in the rural areas, and this muddies the waters considerably due to the synonymity that was imputed to terms such as for example `Facon' with any knife worn by a gaucho and in a part/s of Spain, if I read Forton correctly, `Faca' was used interchangeably with `Navaja'.

As I pointed out in another thread, languages are dominated by conventions, which lend meanings and nuances to words, that are at times irrational or their derivation is outright incorrect - The "Puñal Criollo" is probably the most obvious example that I can bring to this discussion. And once these conventions have taken hold, it will take a very long time to correct the misuse of certain terms, and often we are stuck with them because of the legacy of historical writings.

And then there is the issue of words lapsing into obsolescence, but refusing to disappear completely, such as the English `Bodkin' or Spanish `Rejon' and `Guifero' (both akin to a bodkin, but some possibly with a cutting edge).

4.- Puñal: a very short edged weapon designed to wound with the point. The explanations given by Chris are a good addition to this definition.
Daga (dagger): Edged weapon with guards to defend in the fight, with two, three or four edges.
Cuchilla: Tool made with a wide blade of steel, one edged and with a handle (not a folding knife).
Cuchillo (knife): Tool, one edged, used to cut made with a blade and a handle.

Nicely put.

.....you can check the Diccionario de la Real Academia de la Lengua Espñalola online. If needed, use a translator online. I cannot imagine a more higher authority on this matters, though it is not perfect.

Did a Google for it, but couldn't find a link. Any chance of posting it?

And when was it first compiled?

Cheers
Chris

[Hotspur]

Some knives of Argentina that were posted in regard to distiction between facon and chucillo. These were offered by a fellow in Argentina during an internet discussion entitled Dressed To Kill, refered to for a few years as the D2K debate and an article someone was writing (senior moment). Ah, here is the thread.

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=72872

I have in my small ethnic collection just one small punal, or chucillo. Mine was manufactured some time in the 20th century and is marked by a company named AE&Co. I have been unable to determine who that actually is but I run across a good many others with the mark and that of a knotted bugle on the blades.

What I was reading in to some of these discussions was that the facon themselves experienced pretty much the end of general carry during the late 19th century and that the small all metal punal/chucillo of the early and alter 20th century were more of an accessory. My example is of the smaller (10" overall) but I have seen some quite large that some might still refer to as a facon, as the size was truer to what was commonplace in the 19th century. However, the rather large blades of the kitchen chef knife profile were more refered to as a clavado. I guess the main determining factor was facon refered to a weapon, where clavado and chucillo were meant more as tools.

Cheers

Hotspur; I failed loading these yesterday but it might work out ok now

[Chris Evans]

Hi Hotspur,

Great post!

The nomenclature associated with gaucho knives will be contentious for ever. The problem is that both the words `gaucho' and `facon' changed constantly from the time they were first used. Worse still, is that we know very little of the halcyon days of the real gauchos, those that lived on the Pampas before 1800. What passes for gaucho history these days pertains to the rapidly changing 19th century Pampas due to commercial cattle grazing, immigration and the mythologization of agricultural workers, in keeping with nationalistic and romantic trends of the mid to late 1800s.

`Gaucho' went from a malingering vagabond, who lived off wild cattle, to a mounted farm labourer and then onto the embodiment of national virtue. And the `facon' from an oversize knife primarily used to hunt and slaughter wild cattle to a weapon (when the wild cattle disappeared) and then a national icon symbolizing masculinity and the warrior spirit. In popular parlance to this day, any reasonably sized knife worn at the small of the back by an Argentinean horseman (gaucho?) is a facon, though my the mid 19th century a facon was seen as a weapon and the `cuchillo' (knife) as a tool. Here, it is worth remembering that `facon' literally means large knife, even though by popular convention it acquired other nuances and meanings. It is also worth remembering that the wild cattle of the Pampas was in severe decline by the early 19th century and with it the life style of the original gauchos - What cattle was left, was fiercely competed for by the rapidly increasing native Indian population; So the gaucho was compelled to become a mounted hired hand, or a soldier for a local warlord and later, the national army.

Collectors and edged weapon historians needed something more precise than and hence the more definitive names associated with gaucho blade ware used nowadays. For unambiguous discussions it is better to stick to the terms favoured by Osornio and later Domenech.

Re Swordforums: That was an interesting thread and Leonardo made many valid points. Unfortunately, English is not his first language and he had difficulty in articulating himself against hostile interlocutors who greatly misunderstood him.

This is now drifting OT, and perhaps we ought to start a new thread on gaucho knives and Pampean culture, if one is needed. I was merely enlarging on Gonzalo's excellent post regarding blade terminology is Spanish (Castillian!) and mentioned facons etc by way of examples.

Cheers
Chris
PS please post a picture of the brand on you knife and perhaps we can help to identify its origins.

[Hotspur]

Here is a picture that appears on the clasp of these. Just A&E Co. over the twisted/knotted bugle. As mentioned, I have come across quite similar ones. The blade is also labeled INOX, so we can presume they are not earlier than the beginning of the 20th century.

Cheers

[Chris Evans]

Hi Hotspur,

Assuming that the `inox' blade was originally fitted to the furniture, than I doubt if that knife pre-dates the 1960s, but am not entirely sure.

My reference books only address earlier, locally mounted ware.

Up to WWII, trade blades were imported and locally mounted - Then, due to the shortage created by the hostilities, blade manufacturing commenced in Argentina at Tandil in the early 1940s, but as far as I know, was restricted to carbon steel, though this could have changed in later times. As well, that knife could have been made elsewhere, say Brazil, or any other part of the world on special order placed by an importer. Even in the early days, complete knives were made in Europe, in that style, for the Sth American market.

If nobody can improve on my unsatisfactory answer, then perhaps you could put it to Bernard Levine on another forum, who is very well versed in brands and manufacturers.

As a matter of interest, what is the furniture made from? German silver, AKA nickel silver, AKA Alpaca?

Cheers
Chris

[Chris Evans]

Hi Hotspur,

Looking at that photo of two "gauchos" about to duel:

The one on the left and the "referee" are wearing expensive full leather boots (botas duras), a luxury and only for the well off, whereas the one on the right, the humble canvas shoes known there as "alpargatas", worn in those days by farm labourers (peons). Before the introduction of the alpargatas, poor gauchos wore a one piece raw-hide boot called "bota de potro", with their naked toes sticking out and fashioned from a one piece horse leg's skin.

What I find even stranger, is that they are all wearing the very old fashioned "chiripas" a diaper like substitute for trousers, whereas by the time that photo would have been taken, the "bombacha" a baggy trouser of military (zouave) origins was worn by horsemen.

Also, both appear to be wielding genuine large facons/dagas, rather than the expected working knife. The one on the left is wielding a rather large specimen, something that would not have been tolerated at a cattle station, especially from a peon, as suggested by his footwear.

So, IMHO, the photo was definitely posed, maybe even from an early movie. In any event, no Capataz (foreman) or Patron (owner of a cattle station) would bother fighting a duel with a mere peon.

Cheers
Chris

[celtan]

Hi Guys,

Wow, did this thread move fast in the last couple days!

(And just when I had DSL problems...)

My two cents:

"Secessionism" in Spain is as old (at least!), as the pre-roman celtic migrations. They were in continuous wars against each other. Even today, if you visit the mountain hamlets you'd be surprised at the belligerant attitudes between villages simply because they are located on different mountains, valleys etc.. The excuses are limitless. And yet, when you look at the people, their appearance is similar, often sporting the same surnames et al..!

The only thing maintaining Hispania's cohesion was Roman Military Might, then Visigothic, then Castillian etc... ad nauseum.

The modern usage of the world cuchilla in Spanish refers basically to a flat-bladed pocket knife, folding or not.

As I said before, meanings differ according to location. In fact, sometimes words degenerate in their usage according to geographical differences, and end up having the opposite of their original meaning.

I don't see much difference in the Canarias, Mexican and the Albacete knives mentioned. They are probably off-shoots of the same original Mediterranean concept. Wouldn't surprise me if it came with Greek/Carthaginian colonists to Spain, just like the kopis/falcata.

It's a recurring theme for people from different locations to try to claim their own version of "whatever" is different, prettier and "better", even though all the "whatevers" are basically the same.

Compared to Gonzalo's, my direct experiences with Mexico are limited, but in those areas of Northern Mexico I traveled through, the (adult) people I met invariably adressed their language as being "Mexicano", not Spanish. OTOH, they were mostly peasants and laborers, obviously not well educated, and almost always racially American. That may be the clincher.

Regarding Spain's former leader, Francisco Franco, most people don't realize he was an ardent galleguista, but not to the expense of the Nation. In fact, he spoke fluent galaico-portugues.

Franco revelled in his origins, but he also understood the importance of a central official language. His position regarding same merely evoked those of the advising cognoscenti of his era. I happen to agree with his views on it, just like I believe on the need for an official central language in our good ole' US of A. (This doesn't preclude the concurrent and parallel existence of otherl languages within separate ethnic groups.)

Often times, we commit the error of adscribing to people the cause of historical events, when in fact they were merely their product.

In Spain itself, Castillian refers to the dialect spoken in that area, which has become the central official language of Spain. Outside of the peninsula, as in America, it is correct to use the term "Spanish" instead. A similar situation occurs with Italian, German, Chinese etc...

Regarding the "Academia de la Lengua". It is my opinion that it is mostly a political tool for finding common links between Hispanic-based cultures and Nations, and it's anything but strict or even logical regarding the admittance of new words and usages. Basically, anything goes. Personally, I don't use it as reference. IMHO, languages are living entities that change according to local needs, and trying to encompass all changes is simply illogical.

It is very interesting the comment on the shape of the FS "puñal" handle, so similar to the spanish-mediterranean "cuchillos". I had always felt something familiar about the knife, yet could never actually point out what it was. I guess, I couldn't psychologically relate the relatively small and almost dainty FS to the large and brutish Albacetes...

Best regards y'all



M

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by celtan

Hi Guys,

Wow, did this thread move fast in the last couple days!

Hi Manolo,

Thanks for that very informative post. Didn't know that Franco was a closet `galleguista', but it makes sense, since he was born a `gallego', that is in Galicia. Reminds me a bit of Tito who was a Croat, but upheld Yugoslav unity.

Cheers
Chris

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

I think that to this day, `Castellano' (English:Castillian) is still the correct term for what commonly passes for the vulgate `Spanish', though most whom I converse with, including MS Word, fail to make this distinction. Decades ago, anyone with a pretence to an education would never say "I speak Spanish", rather than "I speak Castillian" - It would appear to me that this convention is fading.

Just can't help feeling that Franco may have had something to do with the vigorous upholding of `Castillian', to counter the regionalist/secessionist tendencies in Spain, but I add that this is mere guessing on my part

However, illiteracy in Spain and in South America, was extremely widespread right up to WWII, especially in the rural areas, and this muddies the waters considerably due to the synonymity that was imputed to terms such as for example `Facon' with any knife worn by a gaucho and in a part/s of Spain, if I read Forton correctly, `Faca' was used interchangeably with `Navaja'.

As I pointed out in another thread, languages are dominated by conventions, which lend meanings and nuances to words, that are at times irrational or their derivation is outright incorrect - The "Puñal Criollo" is probably the most obvious example that I can bring to this discussion. And once these conventions have taken hold, it will take a very long time to correct the misuse of certain terms, and often we are stuck with them because of the legacy of historical writings.

Did a Google for it, but couldn't find a link. Any chance of posting it?

And when was it first compiled?

Cheers
Chris

The adoption of castilian as offical languaje of Spain comes from the political and military supremacy of the kingdom of Castilla-Aragón in the times of the Catholic Kings, over the rest of the spanish kingdoms, some of them very reluctant to the unification. This hegemony was not traduced in a complete integration (economic, linguistic, social, political). Thus the separatist forces, and the secular problems of Spain, menaced the unity of the country to the 20th Century, specially in the times of the Civil War, when some provinces saw the opportunity to get autonomy. Franco enforced the unity of the country in base of the centralist castilian government and the linguistic hegemony of the castilian, which had became the ´spanish´ language. Though in some provinces is still used today their local language, even at university level since the death of the dictator.

I agree with your statemens. Faca meant originally a knife.

I give you a link to the Real Academia Española. You will find all the information you need, and the access to the dictionary.

http://www.rae.es/RAE/Noticias.nsf/Home?ReadForm

The Academy was created in the beginning of the 18th Century. You can read a little article about, here:

http://www.elcastellano.org/lodares1.html

Regards

Gonzalo

[Chris Evans]

Ho Gonzalo,

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Franco enforced the unity of the country in base of the centralist castilian government and the linguistic hegemony of the castilian, which had became the ´spanish´ language. Though in some provinces is still used today their local language, even at university level since the death of the dictator.

Yes, that is so. I don't know when the secessionist tendencies started to really become strong, but I find it interesting that the ban on weapons commenced with the demise of the Hapsburgs and the Burbon ascendancy at the start of the 18th century, when the Spanish empire commenced its retreat.

I give you a link to the Real Academia Española. You will find all the information you need, and the access to the dictionary.

http://www.rae.es/RAE/Noticias.nsf/Home?ReadForm

The Academy was created in the beginning of the 18th Century. You can read a little article about, here:

http://www.elcastellano.org/lodares1.html

Many thanks for the links - They will prove to be invaluable.

Cheers
Chris

[Gonzalo G]

Hotspur, the better article I have found on this subject online on this matter, you can find it here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ed=1#post87632

Though, I think you already know it, since the pictures you show are taken from Abel Domenech´s book and are from his property.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Hotspur, the better article I have found on this subject online on this matter, you can find it here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ed=1#post87632

Though, I think you already know it, since the pictures you show are taken from Abel Domenech´s book and are from his property.
Regards

Gonzalo

Hi Gonzalo,

I am not quite sure why you would offer a link back to this very thread? The pictures attached here were done so for ease of viewing and all of them had been posted to the thread I had linked to in that post. I know little to nothing about these knives in general.

To Chris,

Unless Bernard has been somewhat more enlightened than he was when I brought up the A.E.& Co. back in (oh say) 2000, I would likely be spinning my wheels bringing it to his attentions again. The text encircling the company name reads Marca Registrada, so someone might have the company information but it was unknown at the time of my starting the quest in that venue. I see the mark fairly frequently on other examples.

Cheers

Hotspur; is there any thought of the barreled grips being plug bayonet in origin of style?

Here is another quite similar to mine but a fancier blade

[Chris Evans]

Hi Hotspur,

First, I must apologize to Atlantia for hijacking his discussion. I started another thread in Ethongraphic Weapons under Gaucho Knife. Got you an answer, so please see my reply there. Perhaps a moderator could transfer your original post.

Cheers
Chris

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Hi Hotspur,

First, I must apologize to Atlantia for hijacking his discussion. I started another thread in Ethongraphic Weapons under Gaucho Knife. Got you an answer, so please see my reply there. Perhaps a moderator could transfer your original post.

Cheers
Chris

LOL, no worries Chris, you're very helpful, I can't complain if others also want to corner you for an opinion

I'm still no closer to deciding if I should remove the excess disk metal or not though!

Regards
Gene

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

I'm still no closer to deciding if I should remove the excess disk metal or not though!

Regards
Gene

Hi Gene,

If it was mine, I would be sorely tempted to do so, unless I had several and wanted to keep this one as an oddity.

Cheers
Chris