Removing old oil from kris: Necessary?

silkreeler · 20th July 2009, 06:31 AM

Many thanks for the informative reply, Al. It's good enough for me to know that the prolonged presence of old oil on the blade does not damage it. Just one more question: How come people say when you oil your blade too much the old oil will go rancid and in the long run will damage the blade? Doesn't it mean that old oil residue is bad for the blade? Or is it the quantity?

I WILL stay away from the esoteric discussion and did not intend to generate discussion about it. The only reason I brought up the subject briefly is just to explain my regimen - which I am fully aware as being not very common in this day and age - and get the necessary relevant technical information to support it. I myself am uncomfortable discussing these matters in person with a modern Javanese or even Balinese as different cultures have different beliefs regarding krisses (my Balinese friends tend to warn against having a "living kris" and advised to be very careful with such an object unless one's fully informed about what to do with it, so there's another cultural perspective). So yes, let's keep the esoteric part very minimum

A. G. Maisey · 20th July 2009, 07:52 AM

It depends on the oil used.

If you use a coconut based oil, or some other oil based on fats, yes, it can easily go rancid, and if you leave it long enough it will harden into a skin-like substance. I have never seen a blade actually damaged by this substance, and it will wash off with mineral turps.

However, if you use something like medicinal parrafin or baby oil as the base, it will not go rancid. If you use light machine oil or a good gun oil it will not go rancid.The light oils such as medicinal parrafin tend to dry out over time, leaving a very light residue that brushes away easily with the next application of oil. The other oils such as gun oil, provide a long term protective film. Neither of these types of oil will cause damage to a blade under any conditions.

It is not really so uncommon for blades to be smoked over menyan, but this ritual is a part of a total belief system. It cannot stand by itself.

silkreeler · 20th July 2009, 11:25 AM

Good enough, it's much more clear to me now. Right now my modified regimen looks like this, please advise if you have a better idea.

1. I will oil the blade roughly twice every month, each time after the menyan session. No need to remove the old oil. Do you advise more frequent or less oiling?
2. I'm not really sure if I can use mineral oil (gotta ask my guys first about it), but IN CASE I'm stuck with coconut based oil, then will the skin-like substance gradually oxidize the metal surface and dim the pamor? Which is the lesser evil - leaving the skin there and cleaning it occasionally with turp oil, or patting dry the blade from time to time with facial paper?

A. G. Maisey · 20th July 2009, 02:54 PM

Silkreeler, please forgive me, but I feel that whatever advice I may be able to provide will not be of any value to you.

I suggest that you consult with your most knowledgeable friends and follow their advice.

silkreeler · 20th July 2009, 03:54 PM

Too bad cause honestly I found the advises to be valuable so far. So much for East-Meet-West approach where people hope to get the best combination of tradition and technology. I will find my answer somewhere else. Thanks for your time anyway.

David · 28th July 2009, 06:36 PM

Hi Silkreeler. Don't know if you are still out there, but if so then welcome to the forum. I was away for the week and only just now have i seen your post.
I am just a little bit surprised that after a very brief conversation with just one of our many members you are already giving up and off to "find your answers elsewhere". I personally have a great deal of respect for Alan and his opinions, though i must point out that our membership here is rather large and there are many Indonesian members as well as Westerners to comment and/or advise. If you are looking for East-meets-West solutions i can think of no better place to find them. However, patience is a virtue that is often rewarded around here.

Personally i use scented oils with a mineral oil (medicinal paraffin) base. Like you i also use incense in a ritual way. I do understand and in many ways agree with Alan's comments in regards to using specific rituals outside of the context of specific belief system. All i can say in regards to that is that i have my own belief system which is not the same as the one in which menyan is a part, but that the practice of using incense on keris is very much in line with my own personal practices and beliefs. I do not follow the same calendar for the timing of this practice as i am not a Muslim. From my perspective what is important is that whatever rituals one uses they must have some meaning and personal connection for you or they are merely empty practices with no power whatsoever.
I have not found the need to remove previous oil from the blades before applying new oil. I generally oil monthly.
Silkreeler, only you can decide what the right practices for the keeping of your keris must be. Obviously you have an Indonesian source of information from "your guys", but keep in mind that even in a tradition cultural context you are likely to find a great variant of information of what is or is not proper in the care and treatment of keris from knowledgeable people who live within the culture. I don't say this to imply that your sources could be "wrong", only to suggest that there might be alternative "right" methods as well. But ultimately only you can decide what feels right and is appropriate for you keris needs.

semar · 12th August 2009, 07:43 AM

hello silkreeler

David has a point .
Use yout feelings when you whant to theak care of your keris
Because al keris that we collect are made for other peopel
and the first owner that has the keris made bij the empu
know exactly how and what to do because the empu tell him

regards semar

20th July 2009, 06:31 AM	#1
silkreeler Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 27	Many thanks for the informative reply, Al. It's good enough for me to know that the prolonged presence of old oil on the blade does not damage it. Just one more question: How come people say when you oil your blade too much the old oil will go rancid and in the long run will damage the blade? Doesn't it mean that old oil residue is bad for the blade? Or is it the quantity? I WILL stay away from the esoteric discussion and did not intend to generate discussion about it. The only reason I brought up the subject briefly is just to explain my regimen - which I am fully aware as being not very common in this day and age - and get the necessary relevant technical information to support it. I myself am uncomfortable discussing these matters in person with a modern Javanese or even Balinese as different cultures have different beliefs regarding krisses (my Balinese friends tend to warn against having a "living kris" and advised to be very careful with such an object unless one's fully informed about what to do with it, so there's another cultural perspective). So yes, let's keep the esoteric part very minimum

20th July 2009, 07:52 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	It depends on the oil used. If you use a coconut based oil, or some other oil based on fats, yes, it can easily go rancid, and if you leave it long enough it will harden into a skin-like substance. I have never seen a blade actually damaged by this substance, and it will wash off with mineral turps. However, if you use something like medicinal parrafin or baby oil as the base, it will not go rancid. If you use light machine oil or a good gun oil it will not go rancid.The light oils such as medicinal parrafin tend to dry out over time, leaving a very light residue that brushes away easily with the next application of oil. The other oils such as gun oil, provide a long term protective film. Neither of these types of oil will cause damage to a blade under any conditions. It is not really so uncommon for blades to be smoked over menyan, but this ritual is a part of a total belief system. It cannot stand by itself.

20th July 2009, 11:25 AM	#3
silkreeler Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 27	Good enough, it's much more clear to me now. Right now my modified regimen looks like this, please advise if you have a better idea. 1. I will oil the blade roughly twice every month, each time after the menyan session. No need to remove the old oil. Do you advise more frequent or less oiling? 2. I'm not really sure if I can use mineral oil (gotta ask my guys first about it), but IN CASE I'm stuck with coconut based oil, then will the skin-like substance gradually oxidize the metal surface and dim the pamor? Which is the lesser evil - leaving the skin there and cleaning it occasionally with turp oil, or patting dry the blade from time to time with facial paper?

20th July 2009, 02:54 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Silkreeler, please forgive me, but I feel that whatever advice I may be able to provide will not be of any value to you. I suggest that you consult with your most knowledgeable friends and follow their advice.

20th July 2009, 03:54 PM	#5
silkreeler Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 27	Too bad cause honestly I found the advises to be valuable so far. So much for East-Meet-West approach where people hope to get the best combination of tradition and technology. I will find my answer somewhere else. Thanks for your time anyway.

28th July 2009, 06:36 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Hi Silkreeler. Don't know if you are still out there, but if so then welcome to the forum. I was away for the week and only just now have i seen your post. I am just a little bit surprised that after a very brief conversation with just one of our many members you are already giving up and off to "find your answers elsewhere". I personally have a great deal of respect for Alan and his opinions, though i must point out that our membership here is rather large and there are many Indonesian members as well as Westerners to comment and/or advise. If you are looking for East-meets-West solutions i can think of no better place to find them. However, patience is a virtue that is often rewarded around here. Personally i use scented oils with a mineral oil (medicinal paraffin) base. Like you i also use incense in a ritual way. I do understand and in many ways agree with Alan's comments in regards to using specific rituals outside of the context of specific belief system. All i can say in regards to that is that i have my own belief system which is not the same as the one in which menyan is a part, but that the practice of using incense on keris is very much in line with my own personal practices and beliefs. I do not follow the same calendar for the timing of this practice as i am not a Muslim. From my perspective what is important is that whatever rituals one uses they must have some meaning and personal connection for you or they are merely empty practices with no power whatsoever. I have not found the need to remove previous oil from the blades before applying new oil. I generally oil monthly. Silkreeler, only you can decide what the right practices for the keeping of your keris must be. Obviously you have an Indonesian source of information from "your guys", but keep in mind that even in a tradition cultural context you are likely to find a great variant of information of what is or is not proper in the care and treatment of keris from knowledgeable people who live within the culture. I don't say this to imply that your sources could be "wrong", only to suggest that there might be alternative "right" methods as well. But ultimately only you can decide what feels right and is appropriate for you keris needs.

12th August 2009, 07:43 AM	#7
semar Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 272	hello silkreeler David has a point . Use yout feelings when you whant to theak care of your keris Because al keris that we collect are made for other peopel and the first owner that has the keris made bij the empu know exactly how and what to do because the empu tell him regards semar