Popularity of 'katar' shapes?

KuKulzA28 · 20th July 2009, 03:10 AM

Thanks ariel and Jim for the input.
I am surprised it has not been brought up more!

I never knew the manople was actually a mislabled pata - I wonder how many more naming mistakes are currently unknown since the Western world of catalogers often rely on the worked done before them. For example we may call something a sirupati or sundang or cutacha... but it may mean something different to the locals using it, whether they call all kukris sirupatis, or only certain bolos sundangs, or all machetes (regardless of use) a machete... (or perhaps local categorization is different).

It is interesting to note the bichwa-shaped blade on a katar - while that shape is so different than the triangular one we are used to, it seems ubiquitous in all of today's Kalaripayattu halls as far as I know. I understand that Bichwa were popular in the Maratha areas (Western Ghats? my Indian geography is shaky), but that Bichwa dagger-styles were also to be found in Tamil areas - not necessarily in loop handles, sometimes with conventional grips. So was the bichwa design prevalent in Kerala? I doubt they were ignorant of it, it seems to be popular throughout India, especially in Maratha places.

But why change the design? It was already an effective slashing weapon with the triangular blade, as seen with the Marathas.... if those slashing and punching moves worked on armored (mail and padded cloth) opponents, why would there be any changes necessary to accommodate the scantily clothed in the south? Perhaps styles and preferences diverged a long time ago?

As Jim mentioned, the katars in the north often had swollen tips, Marathas often had European blades riveted to the katar handles, the East often exhibited the hand guard... perhaps the novelty of the southern katar was it's blade shape - but what could lead to this uniqueness?

I am aware it might be 'dangerous' to generalize and stereotpye the katars of each region. If there's one thing I learned on these forums, it's that things are not concrete, a Dutch cutlass blade in Javanese handle, a laminated Jian in villager dress, Persian wootz in Russian dagger, German sword blade in African sword, Yunnan swords used by Koxinga troops, katanas imitated by SE Asians, etc.

KuKulzA28 · 28th August 2009, 08:01 AM

Jens Nordlunde seemed to have touched on a very similar theme in this old thread.

KuKulzA28 · 4th January 2010, 06:03 AM

I'm not sure if it's "OK" to resurrect this thread, about 8 months since it's start... but I thought this would interest some people. I did not have a good clear photo of a Kerala-katar used in Kalaripayattu, and I don't think many outside of Kerala and Kalaripayattu training know much about it specifically...

link the Kerala-katar

Photo edited to be "right-side up"

Found this guy while looking up Taiwanese aboriginal knives and Native American quivers in the database.

Good enough example? Any interest for discussion?

Could this Kerala / Kalaripayattu style katar simply be a martial arts specialization weapon? Some martial arts have a specialized weapon that their art is often known by... or a master fighter had taken a common or uncommon weapon and further modified it and developed further techniques for it that is carried down in his fighting art.

20th July 2009, 03:10 AM	#1
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Thanks ariel and Jim for the input. I am surprised it has not been brought up more! I never knew the manople was actually a mislabled pata - I wonder how many more naming mistakes are currently unknown since the Western world of catalogers often rely on the worked done before them. For example we may call something a sirupati or sundang or cutacha... but it may mean something different to the locals using it, whether they call all kukris sirupatis, or only certain bolos sundangs, or all machetes (regardless of use) a machete... (or perhaps local categorization is different). It is interesting to note the bichwa-shaped blade on a katar - while that shape is so different than the triangular one we are used to, it seems ubiquitous in all of today's Kalaripayattu halls as far as I know. I understand that Bichwa were popular in the Maratha areas (Western Ghats? my Indian geography is shaky), but that Bichwa dagger-styles were also to be found in Tamil areas - not necessarily in loop handles, sometimes with conventional grips. So was the bichwa design prevalent in Kerala? I doubt they were ignorant of it, it seems to be popular throughout India, especially in Maratha places. But why change the design? It was already an effective slashing weapon with the triangular blade, as seen with the Marathas.... if those slashing and punching moves worked on armored (mail and padded cloth) opponents, why would there be any changes necessary to accommodate the scantily clothed in the south? Perhaps styles and preferences diverged a long time ago? As Jim mentioned, the katars in the north often had swollen tips, Marathas often had European blades riveted to the katar handles, the East often exhibited the hand guard... perhaps the novelty of the southern katar was it's blade shape - but what could lead to this uniqueness? I am aware it might be 'dangerous' to generalize and stereotpye the katars of each region. If there's one thing I learned on these forums, it's that things are not concrete, a Dutch cutlass blade in Javanese handle, a laminated Jian in villager dress, Persian wootz in Russian dagger, German sword blade in African sword, Yunnan swords used by Koxinga troops, katanas imitated by SE Asians, etc. Last edited by KuKulzA28; 20th July 2009 at 03:23 AM.

28th August 2009, 08:01 AM	#2
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Jens Nordlunde seemed to have touched on a very similar theme in this old thread.

4th January 2010, 06:03 AM	#3
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	I'm not sure if it's "OK" to resurrect this thread, about 8 months since it's start... but I thought this would interest some people. I did not have a good clear photo of a Kerala-katar used in Kalaripayattu, and I don't think many outside of Kerala and Kalaripayattu training know much about it specifically... link the Kerala-katar Photo edited to be "right-side up" Found this guy while looking up Taiwanese aboriginal knives and Native American quivers in the database. Good enough example? Any interest for discussion? Could this Kerala / Kalaripayattu style katar simply be a martial arts specialization weapon? Some martial arts have a specialized weapon that their art is often known by... or a master fighter had taken a common or uncommon weapon and further modified it and developed further techniques for it that is carried down in his fighting art.