Five Ball Hilt spadroons

Jim McDougall · 13th July 2009, 04:55 AM

Outstanding Jeff!!! and thank you for the excellent plate.
Its great that you have Petard.........please dont tell me you have Aries!!
You've really put together quite a library there.

All the best,
Jim

Jeff D · 13th July 2009, 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

......please dont tell me you have Aries!!

Since 1997, I had another life before you ethnographic guys got ahold of me

All the Best
Jeff

Hotspur · 13th July 2009, 07:24 PM

Thanks Jeff for the plate. Another had offered some other text and plate in formation with descriptions of French swords from the first empire on. That naval counterguard exactly is on a sword I transfered. My previously held example has been described first empire, so yes; a little later than the five ball trend itself. I'm also attaching a hilt that is rather crude. Also, though, from other texts placing it to the '90s but the blade possibly earlier. All I have read of the five-balls (and agreeably I have far fewer text references) has been mentioned as the '80s when they first appear. This one does not look very English at all in build. Possibly even assembled in the colonies but others have refered to it as continental (yet without a French provenance)

I guess I have to more than bow to the Anglaise designation as definitive but I wll continue to look at other origins and evolution.

Cheers

Hotspur; great stuff and thanks again

Jim McDougall · 13th July 2009, 08:23 PM

Absolutely Glen, research never stops!!!

The 'spadroon' shown in the top picture I believe is British as the 'cigar band' affectation did not occur elsewhere, as I understand. Interesting image of Pegusus (?) in the guard, and I am wondering if this might have been special order (as I believe these were) possibly to a yeomanry officer? Returning to Masonic, and even perhaps heraldic symbolism, which such unusual image might have associations with, there were instances where the lodge sentinels, the Tiler, actually had swords made for thier duties. Again, the sword could certainly have been worn in regimental duty as well.

The second sabre seems profoundly French, the black ebony fluted vertically is an affectation seen in many French sabres of the turn of the century. Also the blade in cross section with fuller to centre point is the Montmorency cross section I believe, also of this period. Interestly James Wooley of Birmingham often used this style cross section in his blades, so there remains that possibility.

As devils advocate, I have found some information that may subscribe to the aesthetics approach, and I include it here as I think it is important to present all possibilities whether for or against a theory.

In going through many references on smallswords looking for possible examples using this type of motif, it is interesting that the late Mr. A.V.B. Norman, one of the most astute scholars on hilt forms, does not make specific mention of any possible symbolism in these five ball hilts. I looked through both his "Smallswords and Military Swords" (1966) as well as the magnificent "The Rapier and Smallsword 1460-1820" (1980) which revealed no mention than the obvious description using the motif.

It does seem that smallswords of the 18th century, and particularly after the advent of the rococo period, showed an affinity for representation of paste jewellery, indeed many hilts were fashioned by jewellers. The closeness of beads to images of pearls is quite clear, and in certain Eastern swords with bearings enclosed in open channels the beads are often called 'pearls'.
The fascination for the Eastern European hussars and thier sabres was well established and their flamboyant fashion much admired.

One very important and well known regiment was that of Esterhazy's Hussars in mid to latter 18th century. The sabres of officers of this colorful Hungarian regiment (as seen in Wagner "Cut and Thrust Weapons", p.406, pl.36) has a string of beads (pearls) extending the length of the knuckleguard.
Whether this rather ostenascious style extended into the sabres of other officers of the time is unclear, and it hardly seems that this affectation on a single type of sabre used by the limited number of officers might influence an entire sword style. However, it does seem that the motif did appear in a number of places, which may have entered into the design.

Returning to Masonic possibilities, it is the numeric that is key, not the element of motif.

All best regards,
Jim

Hotspur · 13th July 2009, 09:03 PM

Hi Jim,

The figure in wonder is a hippocanthus (also written as campe and campus), or sea horse and very much a French sword "in the style of", as are others depicted above. I will try to find the first empire example of a ship's transom decoration but am still plowing through old and misplaced image libraries (although I did get my drive loaded to this one). I do have another plate that was shared with descriptions as well but I am shamed not to remember the book offered (if not ideed the same text another had put up).

It had been described by a dealer as an American artillery officer sword via his seeing the pommel type and as described in Peterson. I took it as a dragoon de ville epee before I had it in hand and then sea horses came into it.

The practice of three swords for an officer was not (apparentlY) singular to French practices but the one I pictured fits those descriptions exactly. A dress, or about town eppe. A highly decorated parade sword and duty sword of plainer nature also work in a trio of emsemble.

I wonder if the term horse latitudes for the Atlantic is a purely French or British trait.

Cheers

Hotspur; lost my hydraulics Friday and need to go chat up my mechanic

Edit for those two book plates and I'm unsure who the author is or the book title. It is firgure 9 that lists them as "a l'anglaise"

Jim McDougall · 14th July 2009, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Since 1997, I had another life before you ethnographic guys got ahold of me

All the Best
Jeff

LOL! Know what ya mean! Once upon a time I collected British regulation cavalry swords. Just for kicks I looked up "Swords for Sea Service" (2 vol.)...yikes...think I better put em in a vault!

All the best,
Jim

13th July 2009, 07:24 PM	#3
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 514	Thanks Jeff for the plate. Another had offered some other text and plate in formation with descriptions of French swords from the first empire on. That naval counterguard exactly is on a sword I transfered. My previously held example has been described first empire, so yes; a little later than the five ball trend itself. I'm also attaching a hilt that is rather crude. Also, though, from other texts placing it to the '90s but the blade possibly earlier. All I have read of the five-balls (and agreeably I have far fewer text references) has been mentioned as the '80s when they first appear. This one does not look very English at all in build. Possibly even assembled in the colonies but others have refered to it as continental (yet without a French provenance) I guess I have to more than bow to the Anglaise designation as definitive but I wll continue to look at other origins and evolution. Cheers Hotspur; great stuff and thanks again Attached Images

13th July 2009, 09:03 PM	#5
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 514	Hi Jim, The figure in wonder is a hippocanthus (also written as campe and campus), or sea horse and very much a French sword "in the style of", as are others depicted above. I will try to find the first empire example of a ship's transom decoration but am still plowing through old and misplaced image libraries (although I did get my drive loaded to this one). I do have another plate that was shared with descriptions as well but I am shamed not to remember the book offered (if not ideed the same text another had put up). It had been described by a dealer as an American artillery officer sword via his seeing the pommel type and as described in Peterson. I took it as a dragoon de ville epee before I had it in hand and then sea horses came into it. The practice of three swords for an officer was not (apparentlY) singular to French practices but the one I pictured fits those descriptions exactly. A dress, or about town eppe. A highly decorated parade sword and duty sword of plainer nature also work in a trio of emsemble. I wonder if the term horse latitudes for the Atlantic is a purely French or British trait. Cheers Hotspur; lost my hydraulics Friday and need to go chat up my mechanic Edit for those two book plates and I'm unsure who the author is or the book title. It is firgure 9 that lists them as "a l'anglaise" Attached Images Last edited by Hotspur; 13th July 2009 at 10:22 PM.

13th July 2009, 04:55 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Outstanding Jeff!!! and thank you for the excellent plate. Its great that you have Petard.........please dont tell me you have Aries!! You've really put together quite a library there. All the best, Jim

13th July 2009, 08:23 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Absolutely Glen, research never stops!!! The 'spadroon' shown in the top picture I believe is British as the 'cigar band' affectation did not occur elsewhere, as I understand. Interesting image of Pegusus (?) in the guard, and I am wondering if this might have been special order (as I believe these were) possibly to a yeomanry officer? Returning to Masonic, and even perhaps heraldic symbolism, which such unusual image might have associations with, there were instances where the lodge sentinels, the Tiler, actually had swords made for thier duties. Again, the sword could certainly have been worn in regimental duty as well. The second sabre seems profoundly French, the black ebony fluted vertically is an affectation seen in many French sabres of the turn of the century. Also the blade in cross section with fuller to centre point is the Montmorency cross section I believe, also of this period. Interestly James Wooley of Birmingham often used this style cross section in his blades, so there remains that possibility. As devils advocate, I have found some information that may subscribe to the aesthetics approach, and I include it here as I think it is important to present all possibilities whether for or against a theory. In going through many references on smallswords looking for possible examples using this type of motif, it is interesting that the late Mr. A.V.B. Norman, one of the most astute scholars on hilt forms, does not make specific mention of any possible symbolism in these five ball hilts. I looked through both his "Smallswords and Military Swords" (1966) as well as the magnificent "The Rapier and Smallsword 1460-1820" (1980) which revealed no mention than the obvious description using the motif. It does seem that smallswords of the 18th century, and particularly after the advent of the rococo period, showed an affinity for representation of paste jewellery, indeed many hilts were fashioned by jewellers. The closeness of beads to images of pearls is quite clear, and in certain Eastern swords with bearings enclosed in open channels the beads are often called 'pearls'. The fascination for the Eastern European hussars and thier sabres was well established and their flamboyant fashion much admired. One very important and well known regiment was that of Esterhazy's Hussars in mid to latter 18th century. The sabres of officers of this colorful Hungarian regiment (as seen in Wagner "Cut and Thrust Weapons", p.406, pl.36) has a string of beads (pearls) extending the length of the knuckleguard. Whether this rather ostenascious style extended into the sabres of other officers of the time is unclear, and it hardly seems that this affectation on a single type of sabre used by the limited number of officers might influence an entire sword style. However, it does seem that the motif did appear in a number of places, which may have entered into the design. Returning to Masonic possibilities, it is the numeric that is key, not the element of motif. All best regards, Jim