foreign influence in european arns production?

Samik · 12th July 2009, 06:37 PM

I have an example that could be termed "eastern influence on western armour". I have already posted and discussed it on myarmoury forum
( http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=17004 ) , but methinks that you would not mind if I'd shared it with you

This is from a Marble monument dedicated to György Serédy (dated 1549, although some historians date it later to 1557) that is located in a church (St.Egidius, basilica minor) in my hometown of Bardejov, Slovakia ( hope thats not being considered as a commercial but hey you are free to pay a visit if you wish

)

I was told that Serédy's helmet is a burgonet. The one that I find most similar to it is this piece:

However, please note the presence of the "nasal bar" on Serédy's burgonet that is a feature apparently borrowed from the ottoman-turkish çiçak helmet:

Regards,
Samuel

cornelistromp · 12th July 2009, 07:57 PM

Hi All,

the earliest example I can recall is eastern looking sword (japanese) in the
maciejovski bible, French 1250 .

best regards

Samik · 12th July 2009, 08:16 PM

Hi cornelistromp,

Yeah its the infamous "macejowski’s glaive" , personally to me it looks like some sort of a glaive-polearm (hence the name i guess) that was hack off at the shaft. There were heated debates about the origin of the weapon on several other "arms n armour" oriented forums , but to no avail since no such "living" speciment was unearthed. Who knows maybye it was just the authors imagination

(note also the man-at-arms that is hacked in half with his guts out , seems like an exeggaration to make the painting/battle more impresive)

cornelistromp · 12th July 2009, 08:22 PM

in the early 18thC black on the outside (if rubbed copperlike) hilts were imported from perhaps Tonkin to Holland.
the material was called black suassa and is an alloy of antimony, gold and copper.
al lot of chinese and japanese decorative features were on these shakudo hilts. it is certain that VOC (dutch east india company) was the sole importer.at the moment it is not yet known if the company only imported Hilts and sword mounts and that they were asembled in Holland or if blades were exported were all these parts were assembled in Deshima near Nagasaki.

it is unknown if eastern hilt smiths worked in Holland.

the shakudo hilts are of extreme high quality and workmanship.

best regards

Gonzalo G · 16th July 2009, 10:57 PM

I thought my words were very specific. I asked in which way european swords greatly influenced outside world in the 8th-9th Centuries. I am aware of the latter interactions, though it would be convenient to specify every one of them. I don´t believe frankish swords were considered superior to the made inside of the muslim empire. Al-Kindi mentions those swords, and not as superior. Arabs-moors just arrived to the iberic peninsula imported swords because they didn´t had their own manofacture already established, but latter they made their own swords which influenced the europeans. Charlemagne was the first to prohibit the export the frankish swords, and also byrnes, helmets, lances, and all the weaponry, as he was making a military revolution in european terms, and those weapons were neded by them. I don´t believe european production of steel was better than the one from India and maybe other places as Iran and the Middle East, until the 19th Century. Every bit of factual evidence must be considered in the revision of such interactions to avoid the happy (and ungrounded) statements made before by eurocentrist specialists. Just read Oakeshott saying that the scramasax was the ancestor of the szabla-saber, and the kopis the ancestor of the khukri...just because...
Regards

Gonzalo

Jim McDougall · 17th July 2009, 01:30 AM

The wording in the original query of the thread is tricky. The 'influences' between east and west arms and armour is well known, profoundly represented and discussed and the subject of countless articles and books.

What is being sought is actual workmen from 'foreign' sources physically brought to the country to work in bladesmith or armourers shops.....much in the manner of the Solingen swordsmiths who were brought to England to work in what became the Hounslow swords, later the Shotley Bridge.

Obviously this is an example of Germany to England, and different Western nationalities. The question is were Chinese, Japanese, Persian, or other Middle East or Oriental craftsmen ever brought into European factories or shop of arms and armour.

Truly an interesting question, and clearly not a topic well covered in most of the literature.

All best regards,
Jim

Gonzalo G · 21st July 2009, 01:29 AM

Sorry, Ausjulius and Jim, as I said in other post, I save the pages and post my answers days latter, and sometimes I am completely out of phase.
Regards

Gonzalo

Jim McDougall · 21st July 2009, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Sorry, Ausjulius and Jim, as I said in other post, I save the pages and post my answers days latter, and sometimes I am completely out of phase.
Regards

Gonzalo

Gonzalo, please dont apologize, it is completely unnecessary. Actually, in reading your posts here, much as always on whatever topic, I am constantly amazed at your command of such esoteric history, and the detailed and well written material you add.
I think your perspective on these influences is outstanding, and you are never out of phase, but I wanted to direct to the other aspect of this topic as well, that of actual foreign presence in European workshops.

I have always admired your tenacity in your participation here, stay with it Gonzalo!!!

All the very best,
Jim

12th July 2009, 06:37 PM	#1
Samik Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Slovakia Posts: 48	I have an example that could be termed "eastern influence on western armour". I have already posted and discussed it on myarmoury forum ( http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=17004 ) , but methinks that you would not mind if I'd shared it with you This is from a Marble monument dedicated to György Serédy (dated 1549, although some historians date it later to 1557) that is located in a church (St.Egidius, basilica minor) in my hometown of Bardejov, Slovakia ( hope thats not being considered as a commercial but hey you are free to pay a visit if you wish ) I was told that Serédy's helmet is a burgonet. The one that I find most similar to it is this piece: However, please note the presence of the "nasal bar" on Serédy's burgonet that is a feature apparently borrowed from the ottoman-turkish çiçak helmet: Regards, Samuel Last edited by Samik; 12th July 2009 at 08:18 PM.

12th July 2009, 07:57 PM	#2
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Hi All, the earliest example I can recall is eastern looking sword (japanese) in the maciejovski bible, French 1250 . best regards Attached Images

12th July 2009, 08:22 PM	#4
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	shakudo hilted Dutch swords in the early 18thC black on the outside (if rubbed copperlike) hilts were imported from perhaps Tonkin to Holland. the material was called black suassa and is an alloy of antimony, gold and copper. al lot of chinese and japanese decorative features were on these shakudo hilts. it is certain that VOC (dutch east india company) was the sole importer.at the moment it is not yet known if the company only imported Hilts and sword mounts and that they were asembled in Holland or if blades were exported were all these parts were assembled in Deshima near Nagasaki. it is unknown if eastern hilt smiths worked in Holland. the shakudo hilts are of extreme high quality and workmanship. best regards Attached Images

12th July 2009, 08:16 PM	#3
Samik Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Slovakia Posts: 48	Hi cornelistromp, Yeah its the infamous "macejowski’s glaive" , personally to me it looks like some sort of a glaive-polearm (hence the name i guess) that was hack off at the shaft. There were heated debates about the origin of the weapon on several other "arms n armour" oriented forums , but to no avail since no such "living" speciment was unearthed. Who knows maybye it was just the authors imagination (note also the man-at-arms that is hacked in half with his guts out , seems like an exeggaration to make the painting/battle more impresive)

16th July 2009, 10:57 PM	#5
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	I thought my words were very specific. I asked in which way european swords greatly influenced outside world in the 8th-9th Centuries. I am aware of the latter interactions, though it would be convenient to specify every one of them. I don´t believe frankish swords were considered superior to the made inside of the muslim empire. Al-Kindi mentions those swords, and not as superior. Arabs-moors just arrived to the iberic peninsula imported swords because they didn´t had their own manofacture already established, but latter they made their own swords which influenced the europeans. Charlemagne was the first to prohibit the export the frankish swords, and also byrnes, helmets, lances, and all the weaponry, as he was making a military revolution in european terms, and those weapons were neded by them. I don´t believe european production of steel was better than the one from India and maybe other places as Iran and the Middle East, until the 19th Century. Every bit of factual evidence must be considered in the revision of such interactions to avoid the happy (and ungrounded) statements made before by eurocentrist specialists. Just read Oakeshott saying that the scramasax was the ancestor of the szabla-saber, and the kopis the ancestor of the khukri...just because... Regards Gonzalo

17th July 2009, 01:30 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	The wording in the original query of the thread is tricky. The 'influences' between east and west arms and armour is well known, profoundly represented and discussed and the subject of countless articles and books. What is being sought is actual workmen from 'foreign' sources physically brought to the country to work in bladesmith or armourers shops.....much in the manner of the Solingen swordsmiths who were brought to England to work in what became the Hounslow swords, later the Shotley Bridge. Obviously this is an example of Germany to England, and different Western nationalities. The question is were Chinese, Japanese, Persian, or other Middle East or Oriental craftsmen ever brought into European factories or shop of arms and armour. Truly an interesting question, and clearly not a topic well covered in most of the literature. All best regards, Jim

21st July 2009, 01:29 AM	#7
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Sorry, Ausjulius and Jim, as I said in other post, I save the pages and post my answers days latter, and sometimes I am completely out of phase. Regards Gonzalo