Anyone recognizes these marks?

[cornelistromp]

Hi Fernando,

unfortunately it is not possible to deliver hard evidence that your blade is Dutch or Portuguese , maybe the other marks can give the outcome.


Mr JP Puype the predecessor of Mr Harm Stevens mentioned in his Dutch sword publication. Blanke wapens p.50 afb.46
....the star-shaped cavity which is almost exclusively found on Dutch sword blades

it is a fact that the paternoster has been frequently used on late 17thC and early 18thC Dutch small swords. those blades are also often signed with the full name of the Dutch maker and the sword shop's address.
there are 100's of examples in collections and museums.

there was a huge export from the Dutch Republic to Portugal in the 17th and 18thC.
already in 1640 the Dutch republic delivered for the Portuguese war against Spain;
24.000 muskets, 4.500 calivers, 5000 carbines, 1000 pairs of pistols and 5000 pikes, 360.000 pounds of gunpowder.
It is possible that the examples of later 18thC small swords you have listed
have been mounted with Dutch blades or are 100% imported and Dutch.
of course it is also possible that Portuguese sword smiths adapted/copied the paternoster on their blades. the paternoster disappeared after approx 1750
in Holland ,the swords you have listed are of a later date.

taking above into consideration it is more likely that your sword blade can be Dutch.

best regards

[Jim McDougall]

Cornelis, beautifully supported explanation and thank you so much for the cite to the Puype reference! (trying to 'excavate' books here can be a daunting task!).
Is Mr. Puype still around? I have tried to contact him without success in recent times.

On another topic, I just posted some material on the thread on 'foreign' workers in European centers, and would really appreciate your input concerning the 'Tonquinese' hilts. Since this also concerns the activity of Dutch swordsmiths I note it here...I promise not trying to hijack the thread Fernando
BTW Fernando, excellent follow up in contacting the Dutch Museum, and I was sorry to hear of the 'help' you received in your post elsewhere. I always have admired your tenacity to go after answers, often beyond what many would deem satisfactory.
Great examples of the Portuguese swords with this marking, which really adds dimension to its appearance on these blades found elsewhere. Since the practice of the application of spurious marks to enhance the value of blades seems a practice widespread throughout known centers, it does not seem unreasonable that Portuguese craftsmen might have done the same.

I gasped at the story on the sword parts tossed away! Nicely done in saving those components....I cannot believe such attitudes regarding preserving such history.

All best regards,
Jim

[cornelistromp]

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall]Cornelis, beautifully supported explanation and thank you so much for the cite to the Puype reference! (trying to 'excavate' books here can be a daunting task!).
Is Mr. Puype still around? I have tried to contact him without success in recent times.

Hi Jim,

please see the private mail.

Best regards

[fernando]

Thank you so much, Cornelis, for your clarifications and precious info. I will obviously save that precious data on the Dutch weaponry exports to Portugal, in my files.
Met vriendelijke groeten .

Thank you Jim, for the kind coments. I too am glad i had the perception that those 'useless' parts would have their contextual value.
... And by all means, your'e free to hijack my threads any time you feel like .
All the best
Fernando