Five Ball Hilt spadroons

[Jeff D]

Hi Jim and Glen,

I am sure you are aware of this quote from John Wilkinson Latham's British Military Swords 1966 on Page 15.

"King George III's order of 3 April 1786 was that the Infantry were to have a strong cut-and-thrust sword 32 in. long and 1 in. wide at the shoulder, the hilt to be of steel, gilt or silver, according to the buttons of the uniform. Although there are no further descriptions of the sword, nor can any illustration specifications be found, the author feels certain that the sword illustrated at Plate 18 is in fact this one."

I don't know if this goes for or against the Masonic connection, or even if this is still considered correct. However it does place the five ball in the infantry by 1786 according to Mr Wilkinson Latham.

All the Best
Jeff
Plate 18

[Jeff D]

If Mr Wilkinson Latham is correct here is +1 for the Masonic connection (well sort of ) http://www.rurallodge.com/2NEWS/feat...irstRoyal.html

All the Best
Jeff

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks so much Jeff, I knew of the Robson reference to the 1786 Infantry sword, but its been years since I've looked at the 1966 John Wilkinson-Latham reference (another of my very first volumes!!). I appreciate hearing that reference as well, and this does support the appearance of these five ball hilts around that time.
The Masonic theory for this motif is of course based primarily on the cultural climate of the times and the observations noted and discussed. While there is the suggestion that this type of numeric groupings of beads/balls on hilts precedes these examples, especially in Continental countries, then the theory of course would go 'back to the drawing board'.

I would sincerely appreciate anyone having knowledge or examples of any sort of multiple ball motif of this type from earlier swords and other countries letting us know.

I think I'll do some further checking into smallsword motif.

All the best,
Jim

[Jeff D]

Hi Jim and Glen,

Michel Petard in Des Sabres et Des Epees States that the "5-ball" style was taken from the English in 1795.

All the Best.

[Jim McDougall]

Outstanding Jeff!!! and thank you for the excellent plate.
Its great that you have Petard.........please dont tell me you have Aries!!
You've really put together quite a library there.

All the best,
Jim

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

......please dont tell me you have Aries!!

Since 1997, I had another life before you ethnographic guys got ahold of me

All the Best
Jeff

[Hotspur]

Thanks Jeff for the plate. Another had offered some other text and plate in formation with descriptions of French swords from the first empire on. That naval counterguard exactly is on a sword I transfered. My previously held example has been described first empire, so yes; a little later than the five ball trend itself. I'm also attaching a hilt that is rather crude. Also, though, from other texts placing it to the '90s but the blade possibly earlier. All I have read of the five-balls (and agreeably I have far fewer text references) has been mentioned as the '80s when they first appear. This one does not look very English at all in build. Possibly even assembled in the colonies but others have refered to it as continental (yet without a French provenance)

I guess I have to more than bow to the Anglaise designation as definitive but I wll continue to look at other origins and evolution.

Cheers

Hotspur; great stuff and thanks again

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Since 1997, I had another life before you ethnographic guys got ahold of me

All the Best
Jeff

LOL! Know what ya mean! Once upon a time I collected British regulation cavalry swords. Just for kicks I looked up "Swords for Sea Service" (2 vol.)...yikes...think I better put em in a vault!

All the best,
Jim

[Dmitry]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi Jim and Glen,

Michel Petard in Des Sabres et Des Epees States that the "5-ball" style was taken from the English in 1795.

All the Best.

Jeff, would it be troublesome to look up the number 161 C sword in the picture you posted? I have a sword with the exact decoration on the guard - a hippocampus.

Thanks!

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Jeff, would it be troublesome to look up the number 161 C sword in the picture you posted? I have a sword with the exact decoration on the guard - a hippocampus.

Thanks!

Hi Dmitry,

It simply states that this is the "seahorse version of the naval officers sword". I will include a scan of the caption (sorry about the poor quality).

All the best
Jeff

[Dmitry]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi Dmitry,

It simply states that this is the "seahorse version of the naval officers sword". I will include a scan of the caption (sorry about the poor quality).

All the best
Jeff

Jeff, thank you very much! This confirms that my sword was a naval officer's weapon.

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

If Mr Wilkinson Latham is correct here is +1 for the Masonic connection (well sort of ) http://www.rurallodge.com/2NEWS/feat...irstRoyal.html

All the Best
Jeff

Well, I would somewhat disagree some of the information as published being a beginning of royalty buying into guild/craft membership. Somewhat ancillary was an earlier link I offered regarding trade, guilds and sponsorship. George III was also the underwriter to the Odd Fellows and granted their charter. An affair that goes right back to the more open/publicly known network of the Freemasons.

King George’s father was a Freemason. Frederick Lewis, Prince of Wales (1707-1751), was heir to the throne of his father King George II. Frederick Lewis was of paramount importance because he was the first Royal Freemason. Once royalty entered the Craft, then everybody wanted to join, and the fraternity was assured of success. Frederick Lewis led a hedonistic lifestyle and died before his father, thrusting his son George III onto the thrones of England and Hanover in 1760 at the age of 20.

At about the time that Friday the 13th came about, England continued to support the Templars through transfers to the Hospitalliers. Few were charged with anything so much as a modern description of a misdemeanor. EIII became the treasurer of all the efforts previoulsy administered by the Templars. In a sense, Free Masonry and the Templars kind of relate an unbroken chain of networking and guild (craft) that parallels later advents such as the Odd Fellows. Edward the third bought his ticket into the linen armourers guild, his sons likewise. The Order Of The Garter was another continuation for fraternal purposes.

Then later in the 14th century being led to London against the same family during the march of Wat Tyler (sic). Was that last simply a guild struggle? I dunno.

Cheers

Hotspur; I am now probably just rambling about my readings from different stories of history