Five Ball Hilt spadroons

[Hotspur]

Ok Jeff, file duly noted.

First and correct me if I am wrong, there is a single cushion pommel seven beaded sword that happens to have Masonic iconography. We'll come back to that and perhaps merge or move it to a thread I initiated today regarding military swords used in fraternal society.

Secondly and while freely admiting to not being involved in Free Masonry, the article is thirty years old. While not dismissing such work, I have at times spent a good bit of browsing in the past decade reading about it. Here is a good site. Especially so for iconography. that is a nice chart in the Hamilton article though, a nice job with that.

http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/masoni...ns_america.htm

Let me see if I can find some more I plumbed the depths and angles of such history.

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/

I can just about paraphrase the Hamilton article historical notes from the bookshelf I have there, simply in regarding notes about the Templars, Free Masons and development of fraternties both in England and somewhat worldwide (including American growth). South Carolina history is another interesting portal for such research.

Another older and goody from my bookmarks regarding guilds, craft and economic growth.
http://www.takver.com/history/benefit/ctormys.htm

Getting back to beaded swords, I think not as associative as that single article example.

I do find the Hamilton artice quite useful to me in some aspects but not so much regarding what amounts to fraternal presentation swords. While interesting to in a different association of/to fraternities, what I find specifically of interest are some fairly plain swords that incorporate private purchase requests. Presentation swords are yet another category and as we all may agree that many military officers have been or are Free Masons, in the end, it's just a sword. I do not see that the number of beads are specifically engineered for Free Masons or even officer grades.

My feeling is that a continued discussion regarding fraternal swords, while quite parallel in this thread's interest, is a sidebar that might be better suited in a seperate thread than spadrone examples. Either that or I'm quite agreeable to attaching a mess o pictures of Shriners sabres, a dandy 1796 lc lodge sword and an exceptional British yeoman cavalry sabre with some really neat Scottish rite stuff engraved and gilded. Of those three I listed, it is just the Shriners sabres I would specifically assign to only fraternity. Some examples have been out there listed at dealers for some years (as of a few days ago, including a dandy skull and bones hilt for really short money.

Cheers

Hotspur; I like this spadroon a lot. Actually a couple to share. Oh yes, how about the diamonds in the counterguards?

[Jeff D]

Hi Glen,

You are absolutely correct this article is hardly convincing that there is a definite link between the beads and the Masons. However it is definite that the hilt type was used on at least one occasion. I know absolutely nothing of the Mason organization, other then it liked secret symbols (even this I don't know for sure). Rather than show multiple examples of Known Mason swords with associated known symbols on them, do you have any examples of these known symbols on working military pieces? was it ever allowed? I don't mean added later to retired blades as Hamilton has cited.

All the Best
Jeff

[Hotspur]

Hi Jeff, I'll add some images in the other thread I began. I panicked in thinking I had lost that one on a drive. I hesitate to just link some dealer offerings still listed but that one yeoman cavalry sword sold some time ago.

Cheers

Hotppur; oddly. it was the Odd Fellows that first drew my curiousities

[Rick]

Please don't link to any items currently for sale .

[Jim McDougall]

Jeff, thank you so much for the kind words, and especially for the confidence in the observations and thoughts I often express. That really means a lot .

Glen, thank you for your open minded approach in examining and reopening thoughts open for consideration in this topic.

I have often discovered that the subject of symbolism in motif and decoration on swords is typically met with considerable difference of opinion and responses from indifference and skepticism to even outright hostility in thankfully few cases.

It has been many years since I first considered the possibility of Masonic symbolism in these swords, and as I recall, even in communication with Brian Robson, he discounted the idea, claiming that the five ball motif was likely an aesthetic selection.
In my research I found the 1963 article by W.E.May in the Journal of the Arms and Armour Society, and while he did not express the Masonic idea, he was intrigued by the motif, and noted that he hoped further research would ensue.
In years to follow, I began studying markings on blades, and discovered the talismanic and cabbalistic motif profoundly occurring on British and European military blades. It seems that the 18th century was highly charged with secret societies, fraternal groups, and occultism, which had carried the concept of superstition and talismanic properties imbued in weapons from the earlier 'Passau Art'.
Among the societies originating in the early 18th century was of course the Freemasons, which had membership not only in England and Scotland, but in France. This brotherhood had ties much deeper than politics or loyalty to a crown, and was nearly quintessant in its ancient symbolism and fealty.
In a time wrought with occultism, elitism in fashion and culture, and the search for cultural superiority, the gentry often sought romanticized gallantry in military appontment of rank.

As I have mentioned, the spadroon was introduced as a corresponding military counterpart to the gentlemans smallsword, and neoclassic fashion was clearly seen in the stylish hilt and classic style pommel. My mention of the use of the term 'spadroon' was simply to illustrate the Italian fencing term which might have alluded to the familiarity of these officers of gentry origins and such training. That they would have quite likely been members of Masonic lodges is also most likely, and the thought of the numeric five representing such allusion seems to me quite plausible.

I recently watched a documentary concerning Masonic symbolism and the possibilities associated with the symbolism found on the dollar bill. While certainly much of the material is quite contestible, there are a number of elements that are not only plausible, but compelling. Prior to the American Revolution, the forefathers of the country were not only British subjects, but many, including George Washington and more, were Masons. The French, who were profoundly allied in the Revolution, were also in many cases, of Masonic lodges.
It is interesting that this numeric ball motif found its way across the English Channel to France, as a model for a sword pattern, when France seldom was a follower in adopting weapon forms. It is further interesting that the pattern seems to have followed to the United States, in a time when strife between the U.S. and England remained in place despite strained diplomatic ties.
Perhaps more the result of fraternal solidarity ?

This is pretty much my presentation of my case, and whether or not it can be proven, I still think it is worthy of consideration. I very much believe that Masonic symbolism has long existed subtly in military tradition, and this, and other instances deserve further research.

All best regards,
Jim

[Hotspur]

Hi Jim,

What I am unclear on entirely but don't ascribe to is that beaded hilts (of any number) originated in England. What I see in terms of browsing and cataloging these, along with the more recent fascination of seven vs five, or three vs one; it just doesn't add up to me as Masonic influence. the grandaddy five ball examples of those that I log looks more in line with continental origin. Albeit, someone else I have prodded mentions it as probably later than my impressions of it but does agree it is not English in its evolution.

Mark of Old Swords has an immense amount of data for Birmingham and had offered it on dvd but I have failed to follow up with him due to other things going on. if the evolution and connotation of the meaning evolved in England, comparisons of cutlers on either side would perhaps settle my thought of European influences and the evolution of beading.

A couple of more attachments here from some old auction pages referencing that naval counterguard on a french anglais pattern.

I did watch the very same documentary regarding Washington, the stars and the government's icons. Remarkably though is that Washington became a mason during the French and Indian War (from my understanding of his biographies) and that it was not a case of nepotism (of which some has been cause to approach me about for personal references).

My late younger brother (rip) was quite enthralled with the math, symbology, history of Free Masonry from the 80s to 1994 and desputed my truth to his last breath because he was determined I was in the order (which I'm not). Oldest son to oldest son stuff. I'm also going to attach a symbol for the second son and South Carolina

Cheers

Hotspur; all intresting stuff, that is true

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Glen,
Im really glad you started the other thread on fraternal swords and the military, and we've got great discussion now on both fronts. Thank you.

I would really like to know of earlier use of the numeric ball motif on another type of hilt in earlier times and where. I really cant think of anything offhand, and the first example of the five ball has always been to me the British five ball.
W.E. May ("The Five Ball Type of Sword Hilt", Journal of the Arms and Armour Society, Vol. IV, #9,1963, pp.153-56) notes, "...as far as I have been able to ascertain, swords with the five ball type of hilt came into use in the Royal Navy shortly before the year 1790, as an alternative to two or three other types".
He notes further that the Army also had this type hilt, but he was unclear on whose came first.
It should be noted that Robson's "Swords of the British Army" describing the M1786 Infantry officers spadroon with five ball hilt, did not come out until 1975.

In " Naval Swords" by P.G.W. Annis ( May's co-author in the comprehensive 2 volume "Swords for Sea Service", 1970) also published in 1970, Annis states;
"...the combination of a beaded guard with a grip shaped to the hand may be considered a relatively late feature", as he is describing naval swords at the end of the 18th century.

Mark Cloke is a great researcher who goes into fantastic detail in his studies on weapons, particularly regulation patterns and his work I consider a valuable resource, and I would very much like to know if he has more detail on this topic.

I regret the loss of your brother, who must have been a wonderfully inquisitive and fascinating fellow, and you both must have had great conversations with the knowledge and interest you have in history.

As always, terrific illustrations you post!! and what a great Federal gorget!

All the best,
Jim

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Hotspur; I like this spadroon a lot. Actually a couple to share. Oh yes, how about the diamonds in the counterguards?

Hi Glen,
Sorry I missed this question on the first go round. I am not sure what the diamond is ment for. I read somewhere that Francis Thurkle used it. I have no idea what it represents. I will see if I can find the reference.

Hi Jim,
I am glad I am not the only one

All the best.
Jeff

[Hotspur]

Hi Jeff,

That example was the very first time I had seen these in counterguards. I made the mistake of not striking the iron when it was hot and that one dissapeared back in 2006. I am currently stalking another spadroon that bears the diamond and would be curious (but should be poking around Mowbray's tome again) who supplied blades for Thurkle. Other Englishmen that responded to my query back then mentioned it was just another styling. I believe Jim had some thoughts on a sweetheart counterguard design on a late Wundes bladed hussar. i get sidetracked from specifically eagle head pommel interests. I had a chat and examination about that hussar and Jeff Forgeng of the Higgins was thinkging possibly Scandinavian but definitely earlier than what time some had placed it in. Most likely (by his and other estimations) third quarter and perhaps even earlier.

There are some other swords that are MAsonic related that I never bothered to archive but coming to mind was a Swedish smallsword of the late 18th century quite bedecked with symbology. I would have to go searching for that if it had indeed been on one forum or another.

Thurkle was my first thought as well, as I had just been starting serious rework of everything eagle pommel. Mowbray's frontpiece example from Thurkle has that diamond. Ther are not terribly rare but are few and far in between. All seem to be from about that period of the last quarter 18th century.

Then there is this little nubbin on yet another spadroon ahd I could only imagine it was to position a knot. Were beading implemental to holding a knot in place? Enquiring minds and all that. Jean Binck sorted me out on another knot/scabbard tie, so this lil nubbin has had me wondering for a year or so (another I couldn't chase to my pen that time)

Cheers

Hotspur; I have the hussar pictures quite handy for that one

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks so much guys, this thread just keeps getting better! and Jeff, the note on Thurkle and the note on his use of the diamond has been driving me mad ! You know there will be no sleep until I find it!

Interesting note Glen on the sweetheart design, and while the topic seems familiar, it must have been some time ago as it doesnt come readily to mind. I do know that over the years I did do a lot of research on the use of the heart shape in hilt and mounts motif. Naturally little conclusive resulted, although it did lead to some interesting communications with some most interesting discussions.
It does seem that the heart shape does occur a great deal in Scottish baskethilts in the piercings in the saltires.......perhaps this design in the hilt of a Scottish officers sabre ?

It was actually Charles Whitelaw whose suggestion concerning certain Jacobite symbolism was behind some motif in sword hilts that led me to pursuing the idea that there may be more to such things than simple aesthetics.

I am really curious now on the 'Wundes' hussar sabre, and the note that it may be Scandinavian. Whatever the case the hilt certainly does seem to correspond to those of third quarter 18th.

I would really like to know more on the Swedish smallsword with much symbolism bedecked. What was the nature of this, hilt elements or blade decoration or both? I hate to ask as I know you are in the throes of computer chaos, but my curiosity has the best of me as always.

I do know that I have seen articles on superstitious symbolism and beliefs pertaining to weapons during I believe 17th-18th c. which was published in "Varia" the Swedish journal of the Swedish Arms and Armour Society.
Whether pertinant or not it seemed worthy of note.

The note on fixtures emplaced for holding a knot, i.e. sword knot, is interesting, and though I am not sure these beaded applications would serve in any special manner for same would be the case, it is an interesting suggestion. I do know that a M1796 light cavalry sabre I had that was most certainly a yeomanry example with ivory grips and gilt brass hilt, had a rectangular fixture at the center of the crossguard. This was specifically to hold a sword knot, and while I thought its placement that close to the blade was unusual, I later found references that claimed this recalled a 'Polish' style sabre which had this feature.
I sure miss seeing Jean's posts, and sincerely hope we will hear from again soon.

Regarding the spadroon shown in the two sword post, I had completely overlooked the strange hippocanthus, and being most unfamiliar with French swords in general, had not recognized it. When I thought of Pegasus, I did wonder what in the world that tail was though !
As clearly these French swords were often done 'in the style of' , the swords l'anglaise would certainly have, in instances, duplicated the 'cigar band' around the grip, of the British styles, so my comment stating the feature was strictly British was missspoken, and thought of in general application.

Now, back to the search for the 'Thurkle diamond' ...and I 'Hope' I can find it!

All best regards,
Jim

[Hotspur]

Hi Jim,

Here is a picture of a sword labeled as Swedish and about the 1780s. The odd paart about my coming across it today is that it wasb't the sword Iw as looking for, which may simply mean there are more associated 18th century clearly masonic decorated sword blades than we may think. It wa sa few years ago, so my mind may be misremembering as well but I'm pretty sure it was one as elaborate but with blue and gilt.

Regarding hearts on arms and armour, I have my own perspective on the talisman's of the Catholic church at large and could easily redraw it once again in yet another hearts thread. Heart, chalice, cup, tarot (you may see where I am going in terms and classes of sociology, wands, spades, coins). Again, I look at that from a much stronger continental influence than simly the pierced baskets used in both England and Scotland.

As to sword fixture and knots, it is one more egg in the big basket as so few are depicted in both art and research in descriptions. The salty parrot beak I pictured can have no other purpose I can think of for such a simple artifice of that hilt. It certainly has no aesthetic value I can see. To see knots quite wound around the guard bow does not seem unusual in pictures of later swords.

Ah well, off to look for the Swedish sword some more, unless it really was the one pictured. From the long SFI smallsword thread.

Cheers

Hotspur; there are a lot of swords in that long thread but this one did come up as Swedish and Masonic

[Jeff D]

Hi Jim,

Found it!!! Andrew Mowbray The American eagle-Pommel Sword 1988 Pg 58.

Hi Glen,

Interesting Specimen. Gustavus III issued a number of these swords (or very similar) as swords of honour after the war between Russia and Finland (1788-1790). It is rumoured that the masons assisted Gustavus mount a coup d'etat against the Swedish Riksdag (parliament).

All the Best
jeff

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi Jim,

Found it!!! Andrew Mowbray The American eagle-Pommel Sword 1988 Pg 58.

Hi Glen,

Interesting Specimen. Gustavus III issued a number of these swords (or very similar) as swords of honour after the war between Russia and Finland (1788-1790). It is rumoured that the masons assisted Gustavus mount a coup d'etat against the Swedish Riksdag (parliament).

All the Best
jeff

Well, yes, of course Mowbray does picture an example by Thurkle (it is on the front of his cloth bound) but I cannot associate some of the other examples I have shown this thread and elsewhere, simply because one blade is clearly labeled as Wooley and others simply not too Thurkle.

Cheers

Hotspur; I had recently acquired the Mowbray(the younger)/Flayderman Medicus title and really do need to spend quality time with it.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Jeff and Glen,
You guys are truly masters of esoterica!!! and thank you so much Jeff for finding the reference! Another book I wish I had ! Andrew Mowbray was brilliant as a researcher and had a true passion for eagleheads.
On Thurkle, what was said about the diamond motif? etc.

Glen, thank you for the great pics of this fascinating colichmarde, and excellent example of what appears Masonic motif of the period. It would be interesting to discover more about what particular symbolism might have been favored by the lodges in various countries, as well as associated brotherhoods.

On the heart, it does seem there were discussions a while ago where this occurred in certain cases on Eastern European blade motif, I think it was Polish. I'll have to look for those notes.....we're really digging into some dusty old material here!!!

On another note, on this blade, the five point star seems to have the letter 'G' in the center. While it is often debated on the meaning, one suggestion is that is has to do with geometry, as it often appears in the center of the crossed compass and square of Masonic symbolism, geometry of course the mainstay of the craft. In discussions again of some time ago, the use of the star in Masonic symbolism was one topic.

Returning to the 'Thurkle diamond', in looking into the diamond shape as perhaps seen in symbolism, the compass and square form this shape which encloses the 'G'.

I know that these forays into occult and esoteric symbolism often are met with considerable skepticism and disregard by many, but I think that investigating the symbolism in weapons is a fascinating aspect not typically undertaken, so I really appreciate the participation here.
Thank you guys!!

All the best,
Jim