Swords at the Little Big Horn (Part II)

[Jeff D]

Hi GAC,

Through a series of takeovers and purchases they became WKC Stahl & Eisenwaren Fabrik in 1930. They produced blades for many places on the globe including Germany. I look forward to seeing the photo's.

Jeff

[Jim McDougall]

Tom,
Outstanding LOL!!! The algebraic equations synopsis of these sword markings and numerics is hysterical!! thank you for the lighter side..they really do get puzzling and frustrating trying to find the intended symbolism.
Good points on the running wolf markings as well. These did end up in so many incarnations in other regions that I think they were eventually simply discarded in their original habitat. The running wolf marks did find use by the German smiths in England at Hounslow and Shotley Bridge in the 17th c. and the same type stylized running wolf became popular with Chechen swordsmiths on shashka blades described in "Chechen Arms" by I.Askhabov, p.57-61. These blades seem primarily 19th c. and are termed Ters-Maymal, with a great deal of speculation on the etymology of that term, however are distinguished by the running wolf marking.

The spelling variations on these German blade markings really does prove interesting, and in degree seem consistantly inconsistant I could not recall seeing the Salingen spelling, and Michel thank you for finding that reference in Blair!! It drives me nuts when I cant find the reference I'm looking for.

George, nicely done on the Roby article in "Man at Arms". Again, could not place that reference to the importation of German blades, and that was the exact source I needed. That was an excellent article, and good to re-reference it from the dusty archives !! (1980? was that really 25 yrs ago?yikes)

It is always amazing to see how swords and blades from such diverse provenance can be so inherently linked historically through long standing trade and political associations. Here the discussion of a Confederate sword captured in the Civil War leads to reviews of centuries of German blade industry and trade with England, Spain and Scotland.
I really appreciate you guys keeping things going with references along with excellent observations. Thanks very much

All the best,
Jim

[Jeff D]

Hi All,

GAC has forwarded me these photo's sent to him of the "found" Custer sword. This sword looks like an Imperial German officer's sword, or more unlikely a M1850 staff and field with a later German blade, can't tell from the pictures. Anybody any guesses?

Jeff

[Jim McDougall]

Although this thread is now over two years old, and I doubt if GAC is still around, I wanted to add some new information that those so inclined might find interesting. Before adding that I would like to note on the last post from Jeff, the hilt does look like the U.S. M1850 officers, and the blade appears to me to be one of the German M1889 Imperial officers pattern blades just as Jeff suggests.

I have been here in Montana at Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monument and visited the museum. There in a glass case is the huge sword we were discussing in this thread! The caption lists the sword as having been taken from a Confederate adversary by Custer just after he killed him during a running fight. This event is alleged to have taken place during the Battle of White Oak Swamp (Virginia) in August 1862.

In the resources I have consulted there is no mention of such an event involving Custer taking a sword in combat, though Robert Utley in "Cavalier in Buckskin" describing him on p.30 notes he wore "...a heavy sword, trophy of an earlier exploit, hung from his belt".

The sword is indeed extremely large with the heavy double edged dragoon type blade actually being about 37" long. With the heavy three bar brass hilt probably at least 6 " long that makes this imposing weapon pretty huge. While I could not examine the sword up close, the markings are incredibly crisp and clear except for the obscured script described at the forte of the blade. It is unusually high quality for this very familiar type of blade which was produced in large numbers in Solingen for the Spanish market. It seems that the script marking was indicative probably of special order, as obviously most of these had only the 'Spanish motto' over the central triple fuller blade and were typically narrower.

It seems unclear whether Custer actually obtained this sword as described, and it would seem quite possible that the usual 'romanticizing' of later writers may have inadvertantly 'created' this provenance. In another reference I saw with a photo and description of the sword, it is noted that the sword was given to Custer by someone in his command. This is supported by Custer's wife who wrote later in her book "Boots and Saddles" where she notes "...one of the sabres was remarkably large, and when it was given to the general during the war". In further text she notes, "...the sabre was a Damascus blade, and made of such finely tempered steel that it could be bent nearly double. It had been captured during the war, and looked as if it might have been handed down from some Spanish ancestor. On the blade was engraved a motto in that high flown language which ran " do not draw me without cause; do not sheath me without honor".

Naturally the 'sabre' was a straight dragoon broadsword and the blade had nothing to do with Damascus. It seems clear though that the term itself was construed to indicate it was of high quality. The note that it was captured during the war makes no mention of her husband making the capture.

Regardless, the sword blade itself is breathtaking, one of the highest quality I have seen of these Solingen blades, and I wanted to share this update on where it is actually located. According to the acquisition records, which I was able to view, the sword has been here since 1943 (accession #19, cat. #163 last catalogued in 1960).

All best regards,
Jim

[Jeff D]

What a surprise!!!

I have just gotten back from Calgary Alberta and a visit to the Glenbow museum. I took a number of photo's of this sword and I was going to post it here, what are the odds Jim would have just resurrected this thread?

Here is the saber and the info card seen. This is a strange one, with a British 1821 cavalry officer's hilt and what appears to be a M1860 U.S. cavalry blade. I was able to get a photo of the riccasso and make out that it is a Solingen blade unknown maker name (anyone make out any of the maker's letters).

Sorry about the poor photo's you know how museums feel about photographs.

All the best and thanks Jim for the update.
Jeff

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Jeff,
I knew I could count on you to respond!!! We have always seemed to share the same interests and it was great to be able to bring up this thread on the Custer sword. It also seems that these swords have a great deal of mystery due to the legendary tales attached to them.
The sword you have posted is intriguing also, especially the Lakota tradition about its being captured at the Little Big Horn. While it is known that Custer ordered all sabres to be left at Powder River I believe, it seems that one Native American account notes that there was a single 'long knife' there, without further description. So I suppose it is possible, much as with these iconic battles including the Alamo, the mysteries will never be solved.

It is not surprising to see the Solingen blade on the M1821 British hilt which would have been quite likely in Canada, although it seems if would be regimentally marked. Many of these Solingen cavalry blades were used for U.S. sabres, especially the M1840. It also seems that there are numerous instances which illustrate Native Americans had cavalry sabres, but the use seems ceremonial and these had elaborately decorated cases, and of the examples seen, they appear to have British hilts. Since the Sioux tribes moved across the Canadian border so frequently, it would seem plausible that these swords might have come from these regions. In other cases where U.S. troops did use swords, a number of them were captured as well.

Thanks for answering Jeff and especially for sharing the photos of this sword.

All the very best,
Jim

[Jeff D]

Hi Jim,

I recently came into possession of a Little Bighorn Associates Research Review Volume VIII Fall Number 3. There is an Article by Lawrence Frost Pg 4-8. I think you may find it interesting as this appears to be where Mr Connell obtained his information.
I will quote it here;

' General Custer's famous straight saber was not buried with him. The sword was lent to the national Museum by Mrs, B. Elizabeth Custer in 1912 and was described and illustrated in National Museum Bulletin 163.

This saber, which is now a part of the Elizabeth B. Custer collection at the Custer Battlefield National Monument, is 37 inches long with a blade 1-1/2 inches wide. The weight of the saber is two pounds, eight and three-quarters ounces. The weight is emphasized because of the story Whittaker told of the use of the blade by Custer and in which "men said that hardly an arm in the service could be found strong enough to wield the blade, save Custer's alone"

Comparing Custer's blade to the light cavalry saber Model 1860 - in vogue at that time, the light cavalry saber had a 34 5/8 inch blade that was one inch wide, and weighed one pound and six ounces. This gave Custer an advantage of nearly two and one-half inches in length and a blade 50 per cent wider. The heavier Custer blade was a pound and nearly three ounces heavier than that carried by his men. In the National Museum's description of Custer's weapon it is referred to as a Spanish cavalry saber.

A year or two after the museum at the Custer Battlefield had been opened, Major Edward S. Luce permitted Colonel Brice C.W. Custer and the writer to examine the saber in detail for it was on exhibit there at the time.

This long, straight double edged weapon was indeed heavy and cumbersome to handle. I attempted the various thrusts, cuts and parries, having been accustomed to the light dueling saber used in fencing competition, and found the heavy weapon unwieldly and very tiring to the wrist. It was a cut and thrust weapon made for a powerful man.

One must remember, however, that the movements of cut and parry were quite wide in Custer's day, and the moulinet on attack was the accepted method of making a saber cut. One had to have strong wrists and shoulder muscles to accomplish this movement with any degree of security and certainty. The added weight of the blade gave it a certain authority on either attack or defense.

Using a power glass, and search as we might, there was no evidence that this weapon was a Spanish or Toledo blade as it has been described by some. The engraving on it was in Spanish, but that proves nothing. The engraving might have been in Latin or French but that is no positive association with a country. On the forte of the blade, near the hilt, were some obscure, well-worn letters that formed an incomplete word. I have since misplaced my notes but read into it "Solingen," a well-known German sword-maker. I could be wrong.

This is not the only cutting weapon Custer left to posterity. Colonel Brice C.W. Custer had two of the General's sabers. Both were the 1860 model, light cavalry saber. One blade was stamped "USA" near the hilt, and on the other side, "ACMP", with some fancy scrollwork below. Both now belong to Colonel George A. Custer III.

Colonel Charles Custer, Colonel Brice Custer's brother (both grand-nephew's of general Custer and his nearest lineal descendents), has a saber that belonged to his great-uncle Autie. It is 41 inches long, and is stamped "US--1864--A.G.M. C. ROBY, W. CHELMSFORD, MASS." The scabbard is 36 3/8 inches in length. I have not examined this saber but have seen both of Brice's.'

Mr Frost goes on to list a number of other swords with out much detail. It is interesting to note that the Roby saber was originally attributed to Autie Custer (edit: Autie was Armstrong Reed not Custer, GAC's nephew) rather than George?