Zaghnal

roshan · 4th July 2009, 06:28 PM

Indian languages do not have the letter "z" as a native sound. Z is only found in words borrowed from Arabic, Persian or English. Most Indians will pronounce z as a j instead, as they do not have any sound that is closer to z. Indian scripts do not even have letters for z - in most writing systems, it is written as a J with a dot below it.

However, well educated, urban speakers will often pronounce the z's in borrowed Arabic or Persian words correctly - Hindus as a result of English language education, and Muslims as a result of Urdu.

The situation varies from region to region though. For example, in the Sindhi language, due to the use of Persian as an administrative language during precolonial times, z's and j's are always distinguished. In Punjabi, Hindi and Urdu the situation is as I described above (with urban speakers distinguishing and rural ones replacing), while in other languages, such as Gujarati, z is always replaced by j, although this could be changing due to the influence of Hindi/Urdu and because replacing z with j is regarded as a sign of being uneducated.

Hope this post has been informative.

Jim McDougall · 4th July 2009, 09:47 PM

Thank you so much Roshan! The languages and dialects of the Indian Subcontinent and regions into Central Asia are fascinating as well as formidable in trying to understand linguistically, especially for non-linguists like myself. I really appreciate you taking the time to explain so carefully and in detail. This information is indeed profoundly helpful.

It is also great to review the discussion in this thread, not only about the interesting weapon form, the zaghnal, but discussion of matters that are coincidentally a very prevalenent topic of late. I had forgotten about these discussions on this thread, and it is great to reread this material.

Thank you once again Roshan.

All the best,
Jim

ward · 4th July 2009, 09:54 PM

The reason pictures are pulled after a auction or sale is because cutomers request it. They may be publishing it a later date,reselling it a later date, or just want their privacy. It is not unusuall.

Regarding this type of zaghnal most of these are late late 19th-20th century they are ususally attached together by a screw system and the koftkagari is not particularly well done.

Jim McDougall · 4th July 2009, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

The reason pictures are pulled after a auction or sale is because cutomers request it. They may be publishing it a later date,reselling it a later date, or just want their privacy. It is not unusuall.

Regarding this type of zaghnal most of these are late late 19th-20th century they are ususally attached together by a screw system and the koftkagari is not particularly well done.

Very helpful information on both counts Ward, Thanks very much.

All the best,
Jim

4th July 2009, 06:28 PM	#1
roshan Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 20	Indian languages do not have the letter "z" as a native sound. Z is only found in words borrowed from Arabic, Persian or English. Most Indians will pronounce z as a j instead, as they do not have any sound that is closer to z. Indian scripts do not even have letters for z - in most writing systems, it is written as a J with a dot below it. However, well educated, urban speakers will often pronounce the z's in borrowed Arabic or Persian words correctly - Hindus as a result of English language education, and Muslims as a result of Urdu. The situation varies from region to region though. For example, in the Sindhi language, due to the use of Persian as an administrative language during precolonial times, z's and j's are always distinguished. In Punjabi, Hindi and Urdu the situation is as I described above (with urban speakers distinguishing and rural ones replacing), while in other languages, such as Gujarati, z is always replaced by j, although this could be changing due to the influence of Hindi/Urdu and because replacing z with j is regarded as a sign of being uneducated. Hope this post has been informative.

4th July 2009, 09:47 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thank you so much Roshan! The languages and dialects of the Indian Subcontinent and regions into Central Asia are fascinating as well as formidable in trying to understand linguistically, especially for non-linguists like myself. I really appreciate you taking the time to explain so carefully and in detail. This information is indeed profoundly helpful. It is also great to review the discussion in this thread, not only about the interesting weapon form, the zaghnal, but discussion of matters that are coincidentally a very prevalenent topic of late. I had forgotten about these discussions on this thread, and it is great to reread this material. Thank you once again Roshan. All the best, Jim

4th July 2009, 09:54 PM	#3
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	The reason pictures are pulled after a auction or sale is because cutomers request it. They may be publishing it a later date,reselling it a later date, or just want their privacy. It is not unusuall. Regarding this type of zaghnal most of these are late late 19th-20th century they are ususally attached together by a screw system and the koftkagari is not particularly well done.