Pesh, Choora ???

Warren McQ · 24th June 2009, 09:42 PM

Hi All,
Here's my latest find, I'm not sure if you'd call this a Pesh or A Choora.
I'm still learning. The blade seems to have some pattern but I haven't tried an etch yet as I wanted to ask you all the best way to do it.
I'm not sure of the handle material or even the age of the knife.
Any help would be appreciated,
Thanks Much,
Warren in Arizona

Atlantia · 24th June 2009, 10:04 PM

Hi Warren,
Looks Afghan a Choora. Doesn't look terribly old, but it is rather well made. Like the brass sheet scabbard as well!
Regards
Gene

Warren McQ · 24th June 2009, 10:13 PM

Thanks, Yes, it does seem well made and I'm not surprised that it may be fairly young. It measures 7.25 inches for the blade and 11.5 inches overall.
I seem to remember reading that the smaller these knives are the more recent the manufacture.

Warren in Arizona

Atlantia · 24th June 2009, 10:21 PM

If it were me, I'd leave the scabbard as-is and then I'd polish up the metalwork/blade on the dagger with 1200 silicon carbide paper. Possibly try some lemon juice on it, then just let it dull down.
Love the T section armour piercing blade design on these, totally rigid, will split chainmail or pierce most clothing and light armour, force ribs apart etc. A real little killer!

katana · 24th June 2009, 11:12 PM

Hi Warren,
I would definately give the blade an etch, there does seem to be some 'patterning' in certain areas....could just be the photographs.....but then again, nothing ventured ..nothing gained. I'm beginning to wonder whether this is a re-hilted example with a older, 'cleaned' (read heavily scratched with grit that was too coarse ) blade.

fingers crossed

Regards David

Atlantia · 24th June 2009, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Warren,
I would definately give the blade an etch, there does seem to be some 'patterning' in certain areas....could just be the photographs.....but then again, nothing ventured ..nothing gained. I'm beginning to wonder whether this is a re-hilted example with a older, 'cleaned' (read heavily scratched with grit that was too coarse ) blade.

fingers crossed

Regards David

Good point David,
Always hope, just look at that 'bowie' I etched! You never know....
And anyways, the proper finishing will definately improve the dagger

Warren McQ · 25th June 2009, 09:10 AM

Thanks Guys,
Yes, I do see a pattern in the blade so I'm going to do an etch ASAP to bring out the , what I think is a Wootz pattern. I'll try to post some better pics in the morning.
I don't know how we could ascertain whether this is an old blade that's been re-handled,
Any Ideas ??

Warren in Arizona

Sikh_soldier · 27th June 2009, 02:20 AM

Hi warren,

You have a very nice, clean example of a Choora, I had a similair one (now sold) and I too did not know what the handle was made out of, someone had suggested plastic, but there was areas near the pins that held the handle where the rust had bled into the handle and discoloured it, I did not think that this would happen with plastic but only bone.

if bone does any of the forum members know what type of bone?

Bally

kronckew · 27th June 2009, 09:23 PM

looks like a slightly less decorated version of this one. 13" overall in scabbard, out it's 12" overall (8" blade, 4" handle)

camel bone is a popular knife scale material, it can also be dyed to just about any color, stained heat treated (scorched) and carved to look like stag or impala horn, etc. giraffe bone is another, probably not found in afghan circles. maybe sheep, goat, camel, horse... and of course the 'I' word which i shall not apply to mine.

Warren McQ · 28th June 2009, 05:30 AM

A little update on this knife,
I've tried etching the blade with warm vinegar without much luck.
there is a pattern visible under 10X so I'll have to try something more aggressive.
The grip material is definitely synthetic, it smells like celluloid when rubbed.
All in all I'm still very happy with this knife.

Thanks to all for your help and interest,

Warren in Arizona

Andrew · 30th June 2009, 06:31 AM

Warren, you might try polishing out the grind marks in that surface before etching--until you do, I don't think you'll pull out any characteristics of the metal.

I'd try very, very fine grit wet sandpaper. You can pick up the kind I'm talking about at a hobby shop.

Go slow.

Rick · 30th June 2009, 04:43 PM

Terms, it's always terms .

Are they one and the same; Pesh and Choora ?
Or are they different forms ?

Pesh or Choora ? :
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=karud

kronckew · 1st July 2009, 11:34 AM

i've always thought the top straight style was 'choora' and the curved bottom as 'pesh', with the larger form of the upper one as 'karud'.

of course, it's be nice to know what the ones who actually made & used them called them. (it would probably meant 'knife'

)

i did a google for 'choora' and ask.com came up with a definition of "A slur for dark skinned people in Pakistan". it is also a sikh wedding ceremony where decorative red (coral) & white (bone) bangles are tied to the bride. kinda like my iv..er bone and coral beaded 'choora'

is it possible the smaller decorated versions are thus ceremonial (tho deadly) wedding versions similar to wedding nimcha? the groom might want to carry around a smaller version on such a day rather than be encumbered with the full larger kit of karud and salawar, but being the khyber area, one would also always want to be armed.

Sikh_soldier · 1st July 2009, 12:33 PM

Hi guys,
kronckew in regards to the Choora definition you found on Google, that is indeed a term for people belonging to the caste of choora, but that is pronounced differently from the dagger, that is pronounced Chooora where the dagger is Churra.

I showed a friend of mine my Choora dagger, he does not know anything about edged weapons but he is from the tribal regions of Afghanistan/Pakistan, and he told me that in the language they speak, Choora (pronounced Churra) means big knife, whereas if his mother asks him to pass a small kitchen knife she says pass the Churri (feminine).
And he told me there is no link to a caste, a derrogatory term or anything else it just means Knife.

Hope this helps

Bally

kronckew · 1st July 2009, 01:18 PM

as suspected, it's a 'knife'

we as collectors are a lot more anal about assigning labels, which tend to gather momentum as more people use them, gaining a life of their own to the point where if i were to call it a 'pisau' (also essentially means 'knife') i'd provoke a storm of comment. i imagine a 'normal' (non-collector) native from the area would if shown a 'choora' would still call it a 'pisau'.

Rick · 1st July 2009, 03:34 PM

Okay , so this is a Choora also; not a Karud as I have assumed ?

If not, then what's the defining factor ?

So frustrating .......

kronckew · 1st July 2009, 03:38 PM

rick has culture shock.

a rose by any other name....

(i'd call yours a karud, but i'm not a pashtun - anyway it (karud) probably means 'bigger knife'

)

no relation to a karuda bird either.

Atlantia · 1st July 2009, 03:47 PM

ooh, dont these threads bring out the pedant in us all?

I always (probobly wrongly) assumed that Kard is the route of Karud which is the T spined, but still straight bladed evolution of the route type, like the one Rick has shown a rather fine example of, while when that blade becomes wider and curved it becomes the Pesh kabz.
I always call the 'Karuds' which are the more 'jagged' Afghan type like Warrens 'Choora's'.
Hmmm, makes ya think it does....

Rick · 1st July 2009, 03:58 PM

Okay ..... that's it !

My new list of Afghan choora/pesh/karud terms :

Small knife.

Medium knife.

large knife .

kronckew · 1st July 2009, 04:16 PM

and lest we forget, there is the

"extra large" knife

and is this 'small knife' a choori?

Sikh_soldier · 1st July 2009, 11:16 PM

sorry everyone I tried to clear up the confusion but ended up making it worse, however atleast we know that the word is not from a derrogatory word for people from a low caste (which is sad in itself) but means knife in certain languages/dialects

Bally

it would be funny if this catches on though, imagine ambiguous auction descriptions

"here we have a beautiful big knife, from somewhere not here, size is bigger than usual, hilt wider than normal, and colour strange but not peculiar"

24th June 2009, 09:42 PM	#1
Warren McQ Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 40	Pesh, Choora ??? Hi All, Here's my latest find, I'm not sure if you'd call this a Pesh or A Choora. I'm still learning. The blade seems to have some pattern but I haven't tried an etch yet as I wanted to ask you all the best way to do it. I'm not sure of the handle material or even the age of the knife. Any help would be appreciated, Thanks Much, Warren in Arizona Attached Images

27th June 2009, 09:23 PM	#9
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,186	looks like a slightly less decorated version of this one. 13" overall in scabbard, out it's 12" overall (8" blade, 4" handle) camel bone is a popular knife scale material, it can also be dyed to just about any color, stained heat treated (scorched) and carved to look like stag or impala horn, etc. giraffe bone is another, probably not found in afghan circles. maybe sheep, goat, camel, horse... and of course the 'I' word which i shall not apply to mine. Last edited by kronckew; 27th June 2009 at 09:43 PM.

1st July 2009, 11:34 AM	#13
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,186	i've always thought the top straight style was 'choora' and the curved bottom as 'pesh', with the larger form of the upper one as 'karud'. of course, it's be nice to know what the ones who actually made & used them called them. (it would probably meant 'knife' ) i did a google for 'choora' and ask.com came up with a definition of "A slur for dark skinned people in Pakistan". it is also a sikh wedding ceremony where decorative red (coral) & white (bone) bangles are tied to the bride. kinda like my iv..er bone and coral beaded 'choora' is it possible the smaller decorated versions are thus ceremonial (tho deadly) wedding versions similar to wedding nimcha? the groom might want to carry around a smaller version on such a day rather than be encumbered with the full larger kit of karud and salawar, but being the khyber area, one would also always want to be armed. Last edited by kronckew; 1st July 2009 at 11:48 AM.

1st July 2009, 03:34 PM	#16
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Name Games Okay , so this is a Choora also; not a Karud as I have assumed ? If not, then what's the defining factor ? So frustrating ....... Attached Images

24th June 2009, 10:04 PM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Warren, Looks Afghan a Choora. Doesn't look terribly old, but it is rather well made. Like the brass sheet scabbard as well! Regards Gene

24th June 2009, 10:13 PM	#3
Warren McQ Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 40	Thanks, Yes, it does seem well made and I'm not surprised that it may be fairly young. It measures 7.25 inches for the blade and 11.5 inches overall. I seem to remember reading that the smaller these knives are the more recent the manufacture. Warren in Arizona

24th June 2009, 10:21 PM	#4
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	If it were me, I'd leave the scabbard as-is and then I'd polish up the metalwork/blade on the dagger with 1200 silicon carbide paper. Possibly try some lemon juice on it, then just let it dull down. Love the T section armour piercing blade design on these, totally rigid, will split chainmail or pierce most clothing and light armour, force ribs apart etc. A real little killer!

24th June 2009, 11:12 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Warren, I would definately give the blade an etch, there does seem to be some 'patterning' in certain areas....could just be the photographs.....but then again, nothing ventured ..nothing gained. I'm beginning to wonder whether this is a re-hilted example with a older, 'cleaned' (read heavily scratched with grit that was too coarse ) blade. fingers crossed Regards David

25th June 2009, 09:10 AM	#7
Warren McQ Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 40	Thanks Guys, Yes, I do see a pattern in the blade so I'm going to do an etch ASAP to bring out the , what I think is a Wootz pattern. I'll try to post some better pics in the morning. I don't know how we could ascertain whether this is an old blade that's been re-handled, Any Ideas ?? Warren in Arizona

27th June 2009, 02:20 AM	#8
Sikh_soldier Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 87	Hi warren, You have a very nice, clean example of a Choora, I had a similair one (now sold) and I too did not know what the handle was made out of, someone had suggested plastic, but there was areas near the pins that held the handle where the rust had bled into the handle and discoloured it, I did not think that this would happen with plastic but only bone. if bone does any of the forum members know what type of bone? Bally

28th June 2009, 05:30 AM	#10
Warren McQ Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 40	A little update on this knife, I've tried etching the blade with warm vinegar without much luck. there is a pattern visible under 10X so I'll have to try something more aggressive. The grip material is definitely synthetic, it smells like celluloid when rubbed. All in all I'm still very happy with this knife. Thanks to all for your help and interest, Warren in Arizona

30th June 2009, 06:31 AM	#11
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Warren, you might try polishing out the grind marks in that surface before etching--until you do, I don't think you'll pull out any characteristics of the metal. I'd try very, very fine grit wet sandpaper. You can pick up the kind I'm talking about at a hobby shop. Go slow.

30th June 2009, 04:43 PM	#12
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Terms, it's always terms . Are they one and the same; Pesh and Choora ? Or are they different forms ? Pesh or Choora ? : http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=karud

1st July 2009, 12:33 PM	#14
Sikh_soldier Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 87	Hi guys, kronckew in regards to the Choora definition you found on Google, that is indeed a term for people belonging to the caste of choora, but that is pronounced differently from the dagger, that is pronounced Chooora where the dagger is Churra. I showed a friend of mine my Choora dagger, he does not know anything about edged weapons but he is from the tribal regions of Afghanistan/Pakistan, and he told me that in the language they speak, Choora (pronounced Churra) means big knife, whereas if his mother asks him to pass a small kitchen knife she says pass the Churri (feminine). And he told me there is no link to a caste, a derrogatory term or anything else it just means Knife. Hope this helps Bally

1st July 2009, 01:18 PM	#15
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,186	as suspected, it's a 'knife' we as collectors are a lot more anal about assigning labels, which tend to gather momentum as more people use them, gaining a life of their own to the point where if i were to call it a 'pisau' (also essentially means 'knife') i'd provoke a storm of comment. i imagine a 'normal' (non-collector) native from the area would if shown a 'choora' would still call it a 'pisau'.

1st July 2009, 03:38 PM	#17
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,186	rick has culture shock. a rose by any other name.... (i'd call yours a karud, but i'm not a pashtun - anyway it (karud) probably means 'bigger knife' ) no relation to a karuda bird either.

1st July 2009, 03:47 PM	#18
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	ooh, dont these threads bring out the pedant in us all? I always (probobly wrongly) assumed that Kard is the route of Karud which is the T spined, but still straight bladed evolution of the route type, like the one Rick has shown a rather fine example of, while when that blade becomes wider and curved it becomes the Pesh kabz. I always call the 'Karuds' which are the more 'jagged' Afghan type like Warrens 'Choora's'. Hmmm, makes ya think it does....

1st July 2009, 03:58 PM	#19
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Okay ..... that's it ! My new list of Afghan choora/pesh/karud terms : Small knife. Medium knife. large knife .

1st July 2009, 04:16 PM	#20
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,186	and lest we forget, there is the "extra large" knife and is this 'small knife' a choori?

1st July 2009, 11:16 PM	#21
Sikh_soldier Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 87	sorry everyone I tried to clear up the confusion but ended up making it worse, however atleast we know that the word is not from a derrogatory word for people from a low caste (which is sad in itself) but means knife in certain languages/dialects Bally it would be funny if this catches on though, imagine ambiguous auction descriptions "here we have a beautiful big knife, from somewhere not here, size is bigger than usual, hilt wider than normal, and colour strange but not peculiar"