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1st July 2009, 01:47 AM
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#1 | |
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Posts: 285
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beautiful keris you have there. I'd like to see it some day. |
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1st July 2009, 01:49 AM
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#2 |
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Member
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 7,056
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Yes!!
The ricikan assigned to each blade form were not assigned in a haphazard manner, nor were they assigned for artistic reasons. They were assigned to convey a meaning and for an esoteric purpose. Vary those ricikan in even the slightest degree and the keris has lost its esoteric value, and hence its meaning. If it has lost its meaning it follows that it has lost its name. |
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1st July 2009, 06:13 AM
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#3 | |
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
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Quote:
GANJAWULUNG |
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1st July 2009, 08:30 AM
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#4 |
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Location: Italy
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I have too a Pasopati in my home (but without rondonunut).Imo it's another good keris with two color (largansir and ...
 beraswutan) .I'll do a pic of this...when i'll come back home from indonesia |
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1st July 2009, 09:09 AM
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#5 | |
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Posts: 285
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I guess my keris is possibly: 1. new made with bad greneng 2. old keris with altered shape. in greneng and wadidang |
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1st July 2009, 11:04 AM
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#6 |
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Posts: 7,056
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Pak Ganja, I believe that Pak Haryono Haryoguritno has already declared his position in this matter:- he would not have published pictures and named the keris in those pictures as dhapur pasopati, had he not believed that dhapur pasopati could have a ron dha nunut.
I have no problem at all with this:- Pak Haryoguritno has decided that the Surakarta Pakem does not suit him, he has adopted a different pakem, or perhaps even written his own. This is of course his right. However, when that Surakarta Pakem was compiled in 1920, it clearly had the endorsement of Pakubuwana X. Dhapur pasopati in that Surakarta Pakem has no ron dha nunut, thus, if a ron dha nunut is in evidence on a keris that bears sufficient other characteristics to classify it as a Surakarta keris, then clearly that keris fails to comply with the relevant Pakem, and it cannot be called a Surakarta Pasopati. It can be called a Surakarta keris of un-named dhapur. It can even be called a dhapur pasopati according to a different pakem, and in the style of Surakarta. But it cannot be called a Surakarta Pasopati. Each individual ricikan has a specific esoteric value. Variation of the allotted ricikan for keris alters the intended value of that keris. This is not a matter of artistic appreciation , nor of opinion. The rules have been set, and within the area where those rules apply, they should be followed. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 1st July 2009 at 01:58 PM. |
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1st July 2009, 06:01 PM
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#7 | |
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Location: J a k a r t a
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Quote:
I have phoned Mr Haryono Guritno this afternoon, and told him about this discussion. (I am trying to express his response as I could...) He said, he knows your name, and of course Pak Parman as well. He also has in his house in Rawamangun, Jakarta now, the book on Keris Pakem 1920 you mentioned -- in javanese scripture, also the pakem book which also used in Karaton Surakarta, the handwritings of Ranggawarsita from about a century ago (original). He said, he also learned keris pakems -- directly -- from Gusti Hadiwidjaja, the son of PB X. He knew the styles of the keris maestros in the period of King PB X and PB XI namely Empu Supawijaya, Empu Jayasukadga, Empu Brajaguna and Empu Brajasetika -- their styles, and their garaps from Gusti Hadiwidjaja. Learning from looking directly from their masterpiece works, and having (collecting) some of their works, until now... He admitted to know one 'tangguh lempoh' (means, knows sure the tangguh) of Empu Jayasukadga, from the much iron nikel pamor, and mainly from his garap, or work. He admitted too, that there are always differences in understanding the "pakem" in keris. Which pakem, he said? Differences, even found in the karaton too, regarding the keris pakem. He learned from Gusti Hadiwidjaja, and also from the Ranggawarsita manuscript, that in the past -- in the Mataram era, there were differences too. Pakem in the era of Paku Buwono (PB) IV, was different with pakem of PB IX. And pakem of PB IX was different too with PB X. Pakem, according to Mr Haryono Guritno, is not a 'dead' rule, that can not be interpreted. The ricikan "rong dha nunut" for instance. In pakem, there were no "rong dha nunut", except keris "with greneng" or "without greneng" in the "wadidang". At least, he interpreted the pakem from the garaps or works of the maestro, such as the works of Supawijaya, Jayasukadga, Brajaguna and Brajasetika that he could see in the hands of Gusti Hadiwidjaja, or the 'penerus' (next generation of Gusti) such as Kanjeng Sumodiningrat (many of Sumodiningrat's collections, was used as illustration in the Jasper and Pirngadie book). He said, even "Groneman Pakem" was different too, if you compare to "Ranggawarsita Pakem", for instance. Which one will you use? According to Mr Guritno, the real meaning of "pakem" is not "strict rule". But only "ancer-ancer" (sorry, I don't even know the English word of this...), Javanese is not a strict rule, sometimes multi-interpretation.... Anyway, he welcomes every different opinion. And he welcomes you too... GANJAWULUNG |
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2nd July 2009, 01:41 AM
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#8 | |
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Posts: 285
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you make it all clear now. |
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3rd July 2009, 02:39 AM
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#9 | |
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Posts: 285
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Quote:
I have in my possession a copy of the Pakem that was prepared by Ngabei Sawikromo for Pakubuwana IX, completed in 1792 (Jawa). PB IX reigned from 1831 to 1893. This earlier Surakarta Pakem defines a dhapur pasopati as having a ron dha nunut. I'm now understand that the book 'dhapur' is simply determine the pakem in PB X era and for the keris before PB X era, it has different ricikan. Then back to my keris, it also might be made with the guidance of pakem before PB X era. by adding ron dha nunut. I'm still wondering about its age, but I guess that I've been miss understood again. poor me. ' price never lies' I bought it cheap and hope the best tangguh for it. ( old PB keris) what a fool. I never expect my thread would result this long debate about pakem dan ricikan. but I do enjoy this thread. I gain so much knowledge and information from both of you. please forgive me for my short comments. I find it difficult to express my thought in English. Y Pak Ganjawulung, I'm wondering why you did not give any comment on my keris age. do you afraid of hurting my feeling when you gonna say "you've been tricked again by the keris dealer" . You know well that I really dont care about it. I do have a new strategy dealing with keris dealers. So don't you worry about it. I'm now collecting keris directly from its source. I simply collect keris from people whom keris are not threated well. people who do not apreciated keris as it should be. people who do not want to keep keris in their house. Off course with the help of my dearest mother. |
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3rd July 2009, 06:01 AM
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#10 | ||
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Location: J a k a r t a
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I did give you my comment already. And it has already 'trespassing the old pakem' of perkerisan by -- (1) never say not-good thing to someone's keris, although not yet (2) 'ninthing' (tinging, knocking the blade in order to hear the tinging sound of the blade)... Anyway, someday I hope we'll meet somewhere. Don't forget to bring your kerises... Quote:
Like appreciating paintings. Appreciation cannot merely come through bundles of old books. Sometimes, you must look carefully and thoroughly the masterpieces. Some other (royal) masterpieces in the past are astonishing too. (Lucky, Gusti Poeger had permitted to look at a tiny them, in Sasana Poesaka, a year before karaton was on fire couple years ago). Some of the masterpieces are "di luar pakem". . One of the astonishing masterpiece I've seen was, a beautiful 'keleng' (pamorless) keris with PB style, with relief of 'goddess in kemben' (kneeling goddes in traditional dress) with only minimal touch of gold kinatah... I don't even know what dhapur it should be. Nyi Lara Kidoel? Just beautiful. This keris now is in a bank locker in Jakarta.... GANJAWULUNG |
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3rd July 2009, 06:35 AM
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#11 |
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Posts: 7,056
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Pak Ganja, you are the one who is commenting on the Lar Gangsir, not I.
Yes, it is indeed a very fine keris, and if it is a PB IX era piece, then it would have been regarded as a pasopati when it was made. I agree with the broad analogy you have drawn with art appreciation, however, art appreciation is a skill which must be learnt.Pictures produced by competent craftsmen, even if those pictures are beautiful, or at least appealing, are not necessarily art.Conversely, some great art can be distinctly unappealing, and much less than beautiful. I believe that you have a background in the field of art? If so, then you know exactly what I am saying here, and you can easily draw the relationship with the art of the keris. However, this digression into the field of art has absolutely no bearing at all upon our discussion to date about dhapur and the role played in the field of dhapur by the various pakem. A keris can most certainly be a work of art, even a great work of art, and be completely unclassifiable as any dhapur in accordance with any pakem. Equally a keris can conform completely to a karaton pakem, and be an appallingly ugly piece of rubbish. Dhapur according to pakem has nothing at all to do with art, it is all about maintenance of an established pattern, that established pattern being related to a socio-religious value. Dhapur is about esoteric value, not artistic value. |
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3rd July 2009, 07:24 AM
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#12 | |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 285
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Quote:
I'd like to meet you in person some day. but most of my kerises are in Solo now. seem like my dearest mother just love them alot. I'm now trying to motivate my family to love keris. I've read your article about empu Subandi from karanganyar. in the article you wrote aboout young people showing high interest in keris making, and one of them is my young brother. my brother's name is Argo. I encouraged him to study keris about a year ago. but the aprentice is temporarily stoped, he is now just simply try to make a living first. I do hope some day he'll continue his keris making practice. He once ask me to meka a besalen for him. based on 6 month keris study, and I rejected his idea. Pak Ganja, thank you for remind me how importand to respect others keris. some times I just too excited and forget this manner.'never say-not good' and the ' nanthing' manner. I are a very lucky person pak Ganja. You've seen wonderful kerises. I'd loke to hae a similar experience some day. I'm looking forward to see you pak Ganja. |
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3rd July 2009, 09:12 AM
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#13 |
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Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 7,056
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I've just been reviewing this thread, and I have found that I have erred in my post # 31.
In that post I have referred to a keris of pasopati dhapur. This is an error in terminology. The keris I have referred to as "pasopati" was in fact Ferry's keris, which is not pasopati but mundharang. All my comments are as intended, but for Ferry's mundharang, not for any pasopati. I apologise if my lack of concentration has caused any confusion. The problem was that the superb keris that our resident connoisseur, Pak Ganja posted blinded me and caused me to think only in terms of pasopati. |
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3rd July 2009, 10:11 AM
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#14 | |
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Posts: 285
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Hybrid Mode
