It is not exactly a barong, but what is it?

Ian · 4th May 2005, 03:35 AM

Teodor:

It is a barung, albeit small by usual standards. A couple of possibilities come to mind.

It could have been made for a boy. There are examples of downsized weapons for boys.

It could have been made as a "hideout" weapon. There are reports of small barung being used by the juramentados, those Moros who performed spirutal rituals, perhaps going into a trance-like state, and then walked into the midst of their enemies to kill as many as possible. The Malay word running amok describes the practice also.

Or it could have been made for foreigners as a memento of their visit to Moroland. Basically a display piece. You mention the thinness of the blade, so this may be the most likely explanation.

It does seem to have been made well in the style of an early 20th C. Moro barung.

Ian.

TVV · 4th May 2005, 04:05 AM

Thanks Ian,
The blade is thin indeed, only 2 mm wide at the spine. Here is another small dagger of approximately the same size, which I guess would be classified as a gunong with a thicker blade. I believe this second one is from the 1950s or later based on the fittings which to me seem as made of alluminum.
Just wanted to learn a bit more about those two items, as I do not know that much about PI weapons (which fascinate me nevertheless).
Thanks,
Teodor

tom hyle · 4th May 2005, 12:35 PM

The gunong likely had and lost a guard. I have a somewhat similar one; mid 20th, I should say; note that the serations seem to have been ground into a straight-forged blade, but are not of the most recent/decadent pointed form. Mine has a particularly solid blade for a gunong. I wouldn't say 50s for aluminum use in PI; 40s is probably a more realistic barrier(?), and production of daggers is always up in wartime.

Conogre · 4th May 2005, 04:36 PM

Here's a similar piece as your first, TVV, which I've often seen loosely grouped and called "baby barungs".
This one has MOP in the front of the scabbard, with a blade thinner than normal for a barung and yet still fully functional and with detail not usually expected in "keepsakes" or souvenier items.
Another possibility that has ocurred to me is for women as "personal protection items", being small, easily concealed and yet ornate enough to reflect caste as is often seen in male weapons.....this may be a stretch, but I've seen similar in european and Ottoman knives, so I keep the option open as at least a possibility.
Mike

TVV · 5th May 2005, 03:00 AM

Tom and Mike, you have made excellent points, thank you. I just wonder if the barong is suitable for a female dagger, as it is a slashing weapon and while the blade on mine is sharp, I guess the shape of a gunong would be more useful at that size. But I am not an expert by any means, and I like "baby barungs" regardless of what their original purpose was, as they are very well made.

Conogre · 5th May 2005, 08:15 AM

While the full sized barungs are most deffinitely slashing weapons, the thinner blades and reduced thickness of the small versions would make them equally well suited as slashers/stabbers, with the blades comparable to the small gunongs originally thought to be assasination pieces.
This is what made me think of them as a woman's protection knife, where the main object is to inflict enough damage to escape with her "honor" intact, rather than to kill outright.
In many areas, particularly those of fundamentalist muslim influence or antiquited Christian mores , once a woman is violated, it was and sometimes still is considered her "duty" to commit suicide to avoid bringing dishonor upon her family or clan.
I've run accross this attitude in today's world here in Florida in people of the "old country" that regularly travel between the two, such as to visit relatives, and was amazed at the vehemence towards surrendering "women's knives" in relation to current post 9/11 airlines regulations.
As I said, I may be way off base, but encountering such has opened my eyes towards the possibility of a weapon in contrast to the way a "civilized" westerner might view it in the present.
Mike

tom hyle · 5th May 2005, 10:23 AM

A woman is always under more threat than a man; there tends to be one more thing people want to take from her.

4th May 2005, 04:36 PM	#4
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Here's a similar piece as your first, TVV, which I've often seen loosely grouped and called "baby barungs". This one has MOP in the front of the scabbard, with a blade thinner than normal for a barung and yet still fully functional and with detail not usually expected in "keepsakes" or souvenier items. Another possibility that has ocurred to me is for women as "personal protection items", being small, easily concealed and yet ornate enough to reflect caste as is often seen in male weapons.....this may be a stretch, but I've seen similar in european and Ottoman knives, so I keep the option open as at least a possibility. Mike Attached Images

4th May 2005, 03:35 AM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,395	Teodor: It is a barung, albeit small by usual standards. A couple of possibilities come to mind. It could have been made for a boy. There are examples of downsized weapons for boys. It could have been made as a "hideout" weapon. There are reports of small barung being used by the juramentados, those Moros who performed spirutal rituals, perhaps going into a trance-like state, and then walked into the midst of their enemies to kill as many as possible. The Malay word running amok describes the practice also. Or it could have been made for foreigners as a memento of their visit to Moroland. Basically a display piece. You mention the thinness of the blade, so this may be the most likely explanation. It does seem to have been made well in the style of an early 20th C. Moro barung. Ian.

4th May 2005, 04:05 AM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,663	Thanks Ian, The blade is thin indeed, only 2 mm wide at the spine. Here is another small dagger of approximately the same size, which I guess would be classified as a gunong with a thicker blade. I believe this second one is from the 1950s or later based on the fittings which to me seem as made of alluminum. Just wanted to learn a bit more about those two items, as I do not know that much about PI weapons (which fascinate me nevertheless). Thanks, Teodor

4th May 2005, 12:35 PM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The gunong likely had and lost a guard. I have a somewhat similar one; mid 20th, I should say; note that the serations seem to have been ground into a straight-forged blade, but are not of the most recent/decadent pointed form. Mine has a particularly solid blade for a gunong. I wouldn't say 50s for aluminum use in PI; 40s is probably a more realistic barrier(?), and production of daggers is always up in wartime.

5th May 2005, 03:00 AM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,663	Tom and Mike, you have made excellent points, thank you. I just wonder if the barong is suitable for a female dagger, as it is a slashing weapon and while the blade on mine is sharp, I guess the shape of a gunong would be more useful at that size. But I am not an expert by any means, and I like "baby barungs" regardless of what their original purpose was, as they are very well made.

5th May 2005, 08:15 AM	#6
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	While the full sized barungs are most deffinitely slashing weapons, the thinner blades and reduced thickness of the small versions would make them equally well suited as slashers/stabbers, with the blades comparable to the small gunongs originally thought to be assasination pieces. This is what made me think of them as a woman's protection knife, where the main object is to inflict enough damage to escape with her "honor" intact, rather than to kill outright. In many areas, particularly those of fundamentalist muslim influence or antiquited Christian mores , once a woman is violated, it was and sometimes still is considered her "duty" to commit suicide to avoid bringing dishonor upon her family or clan. I've run accross this attitude in today's world here in Florida in people of the "old country" that regularly travel between the two, such as to visit relatives, and was amazed at the vehemence towards surrendering "women's knives" in relation to current post 9/11 airlines regulations. As I said, I may be way off base, but encountering such has opened my eyes towards the possibility of a weapon in contrast to the way a "civilized" westerner might view it in the present. Mike

5th May 2005, 10:23 AM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	A woman is always under more threat than a man; there tends to be one more thing people want to take from her.