Keris blade

Sajen · 27th June 2009, 02:42 PM

Hello,

I buy this keris blade from e-bay because I like the shape of the blade.
All informations and inputs are welcome. The blade is 16,75 in / 42,55 cm.

Rick · 27th June 2009, 05:19 PM

From what I can see it looks nicely executed .
I like the ada ada and the strongly defined work in the sorsoran .

Any ideas yourself, Ferry ?
E. Jawa ?

Sajen · 27th June 2009, 08:39 PM

Thank you Rick for comment. Yes, my guess is also East Java. The long ada ada I also like. Any ideas which dapur this can be?

Detlef

ganjawulung · 28th June 2009, 03:37 AM

Ferry,
Regarding the ricikan (details) of your keris, that has a sekar kacang, tikel alis, two sogokan (front and rear), sraweyan, greneng and mainly with ada-ada (a little bit gigir lembu) -- then it has characteristics of keris of dhapur "panimbal". The problem is, panimbal usually has two lambe gajah. But yours has only one...

GANJAWULUNG

Sajen · 28th June 2009, 04:35 AM

Dear Pak Ganja,

maybe I am completly wrong, but Panimbal don't have a lambe gajah, or?

PS: my name is Detlef and not Ferry.

ganjawulung · 28th June 2009, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

maybe I am completly wrong, but Panimbal don't have a lambe gajah, or?

PS: my name is Detlef and not Ferry.

I apologize, Detlef for the wrong mentioning of your name... Panimbal usually has lambe gajah. Even there are two different opinions on this. Either one (Mr Haryono Guritno, for instance) or two lambe gajah (Mr Harsrinuksmo)... You may check also in "Dhapur" book which based on Pangeran Hadiwidjojo's sources....

GANJAWULUNG

Sajen · 28th June 2009, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

I apologize, Detlef for the wrong mentioning of your name... Panimbal usually has lambe gajah. Even there are two different opinions on this. Either one (Mr Haryono Guritno, for instance) or two lambe gajah (Mr Harsrinuksmo)... You may check also in "Dhapur" book which based on Pangeran Hadiwidjojo's sources....

GANJAWULUNG

Dear Ganjawulung,

you are right, Haryono Guritno describe it with one lambe gajah and all features you write before. I check my sources and now I am complete confused. Tammens for example describe it without sekar kacang and without lambe gajah (this don't mean so much, it's not the first mistake I found by him). But the same like he describe in his first book I found by picture in the new book "The Javanese Kris" from Groneman on page 167 from an old source from 1859, a drawing described as "dapoer Paniembal" also without sekar kacang and lambe gajah. So Tammens maybe use this old source? And what is now correct for dapur Panimbal? It's a big different if a keris have sekar kacang or not! If there are one or two lambe gajah maybe already essential for a correct description of a dapur but if there a sekar kacang or not, this is a complete different dapur!!!

sajen

A. G. Maisey · 28th June 2009, 04:35 PM

In my opinion, not a Javanese blade.

That is not a Javanese ada-ada, the ron dha is abysmal, but the overall garap is Bali --- and the length:- 16"? Jawa? Nggak.

I reckon this is a Lombok blade --- they seem to like those funny sticky up ada - ada.

Sajen · 28th June 2009, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In my opinion, not a Javanese blade.

That is not a Javanese ada-ada, the ron dha is abysmal, but the overall garap is Bali --- and the length:- 16"? Jawa? Nggak.

I reckon this is a Lombok blade --- they seem to like those funny sticky up ada - ada.

Thank you Mr. Maisey, like usual from you a very logical desicion.

You can give me maybe also a explanation for my confusion about the two completly different descriptions from the dapur Panimbal?

sajen

A. G. Maisey · 29th June 2009, 01:17 AM

Sajen, many, if not most things in the world of the keris are not carved in stone.

In fact, in Jawa, it is not only names concerned with keris that change, names of many things change from town to town, village to village and even person to person. The Javanese language is referred to by linguists as a non-standard language. Each speaker of the language seems to believe that each word he utters is his own personal property and he can do as he will with it. Bearing in mind the strict heirarchy of formal Javanese, this phenomenon does seem rather peculiar.

In any case, from this base, we find a lot of variation in definitions of the meanings of words, and this flows through into definition in many other areas. When we look at definitions as they apply to the form of keris, those definitions strictly speaking should flow from criteria set down by the various Karatons, however, at the present time the criteria of the various keris forms, or dhapur, appear to be able to be defined by anybody who has a following of believers.

In another recent thread we found a further example of variation in the definition of dhapur.

Speaking only for myself, I feel it is perhaps best not to become too entangled in discussion of dhapur. You could well have as many opinions on any specific dhapur as there are keris study groups.

Now, in the case of this blade, as I have said, I do not accept this as a Javanese blade, if this is so, it really cannot be defined in Javanese terms, so it is not really correct to try to afix any Javanese dhapur name to it.

ferrylaki · 29th June 2009, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

From what I can see it looks nicely executed .
I like the ada ada and the strongly defined work in the sorsoran .

Any ideas yourself, Ferry ?
E. Jawa ?

This is looks like an unfinished keris for me. you can see there are so many areas with clumsy tool mark. the sraweyan is not smooth(need more work on this), the pijetan/blumbangan, the gandik, the sirah cecak, another hours of smoothing job would make it beautifull.

FERRYLAKI

A. G. Maisey · 29th June 2009, 04:54 AM

Its finished Ferry --- according to the man who made it.

Its just not finished to a high standard. Don't forget that very often a lowly keris will be made with very limited tools. The final finishing was often done with pieces of stone or terra cotta, and the final polish with ground terra cotta and water, or ground coral and water.

Sajen · 29th June 2009, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ferrylaki

This is looks like an unfinished keris for me. you can see there are so many areas with clumsy tool mark. the sraweyan is not smooth(need more work on this), the pijetan/blumbangan, the gandik, the sirah cecak, another hours of smoothing job would make it beautifull.

FERRYLAKI

Dear Ferrylaki,

I think it is difficult to see it clearly on the pictures from the seller, it is an old blade and what we see is maybe only corrosion. The blade have had maybe harder corrosion and is repolished and this not smooth?

I will try to make better pics when I hold it in my hands.

sajen

Sajen · 9th July 2009, 02:43 PM

Hello,

received the blade and it seems to my eyes that the not smooth finish of the blade is a mixture between a really not smooth finish of the blade and maybe a grit blasting and cleaning with crude tools to remove corrosion from a former owner of the blade. You can see many cratches from a file at the blade and unevennesses at the complete blade what let me think that the blade is cleaned by grit/sand blasting one time. It's a shame!

sajen

A. G. Maisey · 9th July 2009, 03:18 PM

A few hours with wet & dry paper, a light re-etch, and you'll have something pretty OK.

When we buy keris from outside the culture it is not at all unusual to expect to have to do a bit of work to bring them to where they should be.

Sajen · 9th July 2009, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

A few hours with wet & dry paper, a light re-etch, and you'll have something pretty OK.

When we buy keris from outside the culture it is not at all unusual to expect to have to do a bit of work to bring them to where they should be.

Yes, it will be a work for rainy and cold days in future and then a search for a nice sarung.

sajen

ferrylaki · 10th July 2009, 03:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Yes, it will be a work for rainy and cold days in future and then a search for a nice sarung.

sajen

It looks better in your photograph. look at the pijetan and blumbangan. it still untouched and shows us that it is an old keris. the sogokan loks very fine, the kembang kacang is strong. good luck with the sanding process. you'll find this keris more attractive and beautiful. what style of sarong would you like? 16 inch keris is a little bit longer for a javanese keris, I agree with Alan. or maybe you've already have a warangka for this keris?

Sajen · 10th July 2009, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ferrylaki

It looks better in your photograph. look at the pijetan and blumbangan. it still untouched and shows us that it is an old keris. the sogokan loks very fine, the kembang kacang is strong. good luck with the sanding process. you'll find this keris more attractive and beautiful. what style of sarong would you like? 16 inch keris is a little bit longer for a javanese keris, I agree with Alan. or maybe you've already have a warangka for this keris?

Hello Ferry,

thank you, yes also at the peksi you can see that it is an old blade, but some cratches I have to sand with wet paper to get a smooth facing. And Mr. Maisey have been correct when he say that it is most probably a Lombok blade so I have to look for sarung from there. A warangka with this size I don't have. Maybe I will get one by e-bay one day or by my next trip to Indonesia.

sajen

Sajen · 17th July 2011, 06:10 PM

After all the time also this blade has get a new stain and the blade shows a fine pamor. Still don't have a sarung for this blade but like you see I don't forget my blades also when it need some time!

Do you think that this blade is it worth to get a proper sarung?

David · 17th July 2011, 06:22 PM

Detlef, another fine job bringing an old blade back to life. I certainly thing it deserves some good dressing and would recommend something in a Bali form since i believe Alan was probably right about this being a Lombok blade.

Sajen · 17th July 2011, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Detlef, another fine job bringing an old blade back to life. I certainly thing it deserves some good dressing and would recommend something in a Bali form since i believe Alan was probably right about this being a Lombok blade.

David,

agree with you and Alan that it is a Lombok blade. Let us see what I will be able to manage the next years!

Regards,

Detlef

PenangsangII · 18th July 2011, 10:48 AM

IMHO, Jawa or Lombok or even Bali provenance does not really matter, as I believe though the forging is quite well done, the blade was not made by an Empu or at least a Pandai keris. Look at the tips of the sogokan, and compare that with the blumbangan cleavage near the gandik. If its an empu made, definitely the line of the blumbangan would be nicely touch the tips of the sogokan, and cross the middle of 2nd luk. Any blade made by an empu or pande of any provenance / era would stick to this rule.

David · 18th July 2011, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

IMHO, Jawa or Lombok or even Bali provenance does not really matter, as I believe though the forging is quite well done, the blade was not made by an Empu or at least a Pandai keris. Look at the tips of the sogokan, and compare that with the blumbangan cleavage near the gandik. If its an empu made, definitely the line of the blumbangan would be nicely touch the tips of the sogokan, and cross the middle of 2nd luk. Any blade made by an empu or pande of any provenance / era would stick to this rule.

Sorry, but i am confused as to exactly why you believe that the origin of the blade is unimportant in Detlef's decision on how to dress it. Frankly i would image that the large majority of the blades that we show and discuss here are not empu made keris, yet most of them are clearly in a style or form which does still dictate proper cultural dress.

Sajen · 18th July 2011, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

IMHO, Jawa or Lombok or even Bali provenance does not really matter, as I believe though the forging is quite well done, the blade was not made by an Empu or at least a Pandai keris. Look at the tips of the sogokan, and compare that with the blumbangan cleavage near the gandik. If its an empu made, definitely the line of the blumbangan would be nicely touch the tips of the sogokan, and cross the middle of 2nd luk. Any blade made by an empu or pande of any provenance / era would stick to this rule.

Hello Penangsang,

agree with you that this isn't a blade which is worked by a high standard. Shall I understand by your words that this blade isn't worth to get a proper dress?

Regards,

Detlef

PenangsangII · 19th July 2011, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Sorry, but i am confused as to exactly why you believe that the origin of the blade is unimportant in Detlef's decision on how to dress it. Frankly i would image that the large majority of the blades that we show and discuss here are not empu made keris, yet most of them are clearly in a style or form which does still dictate proper cultural dress.

I hope my earlier comment does not confuse anyone. It was meant to stress that anywhere within the Nusantara realm, empus and pandes had to conform with the so called defined SIFIR (measurement) as that of kraton's or istana's guideline. Even within Malay keris culture, the said sifir still hold true - maybe keris diasphora came from Jawanese kraton, thats why no matter how different the dapur looks, the measurement is still the same.

As such, dressing the keris also normally conform to that of the kraton / istana pakem, unless a keris was made by non empu / pande, the dress then is whatever we feel like dressing IMHO.

I am not sure whether everyone can understand what I was trying to say, as my English is not that good. feel free to ask more if clarification is needed.

PenangsangII · 19th July 2011, 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Penangsang,

agree with you that this isn't a blade which is worked by a high standard. Shall I understand by your words that this blade isn't worth to get a proper dress?

Regards,

Detlef

Hi detlef,

i hope you dont take my earlier comment as an insult. My point was, since the keris was believed to have been made in East Java or Lombok in particular, so dress it in whatever you see fit. But if was most likely made by an empu or even a pande, then the dress has to be more particular.

However, from my own understanding, the keris dress is not necessarily attributed to the place of origin, but rather where the keris was last found (where and who was the last owner). This however only applies to Nusantara area.

Hope this clarifies, but feel free to ask if my words are hard to understand

David · 19th July 2011, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Hi detlef,

i hope you dont take my earlier comment as an insult. My point was, since the keris was believed to have been made in East Java or Lombok in particular, so dress it in whatever you see fit. But if was most likely made by an empu or even a pande, then the dress has to be more particular.

However, from my own understanding, the keris dress is not necessarily attributed to the place of origin, but rather where the keris was last found (where and who was the last owner). This however only applies to Nusantara area.

Hope this clarifies, but feel free to ask if my words are hard to understand

I believe i understand where you are coming from Penagsang, but i think i will agree to disagree. Detlef is not a native of the Indonesian Archipelago. If he were then perhaps it would be appropriate to dress this keris to his own particular cultural region. I doubt very much that the provenance exists to determine which of the cultures of the archipelago this keris was last dressed in so i will continue to maintain that the most appropriate dress would be in the style of the place of origin of the blade.

PenangsangII · 19th July 2011, 09:03 AM

Thks David for your opinion....and to certain extent I agree... but pls take a look at this pic

A. G. Maisey · 19th July 2011, 10:45 AM

Penangsang, I am having a great deal of difficulty in understanding exactly what you mean when you say:-

"--- the line of the blumbangan would be nicely touch the tips of the sogokan, and cross the middle of 2nd luk---"

I have had not a little instruction in the layout of keris that conform to Surakarta and Mataram tangguh.

My teachers in this have been Empu Suparman Supowijaya and Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo, additionally I count amongst my close friends several working pande keris.

I am unable to align anything I have ever heard from any of these people with what I think you might be saying.

I have looked at several keris that are in my care which are attributed to noted makers, such as Empu Jayasukadgo, Empu Kinom, Empu Guling, and I cannot align what I see in these blades with what you have written.

Could I trouble you to clarify exactly what you mean by the statement I have quoted above?

Thank you.

David · 19th July 2011, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Thks David for your opinion....and to certain extent I agree... but pls take a look at this pic

Thanks Penangsang. I have taken a good look at the keris you have posted and don't understand how it relates to what i have said. Could you explain?

27th June 2009, 02:42 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,783	Keris blade Hello, I buy this keris blade from e-bay because I like the shape of the blade. All informations and inputs are welcome. The blade is 16,75 in / 42,55 cm. Attached Images

28th June 2009, 03:37 AM	#4
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Could be Panimbal Ferry, Regarding the ricikan (details) of your keris, that has a sekar kacang, tikel alis, two sogokan (front and rear), sraweyan, greneng and mainly with ada-ada (a little bit gigir lembu) -- then it has characteristics of keris of dhapur "panimbal". The problem is, panimbal usually has two lambe gajah. But yours has only one... GANJAWULUNG

9th July 2009, 02:43 PM	#14
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,783	Hello, received the blade and it seems to my eyes that the not smooth finish of the blade is a mixture between a really not smooth finish of the blade and maybe a grit blasting and cleaning with crude tools to remove corrosion from a former owner of the blade. You can see many cratches from a file at the blade and unevennesses at the complete blade what let me think that the blade is cleaned by grit/sand blasting one time. It's a shame! sajen Attached Images

17th July 2011, 06:10 PM	#19
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,783	After all the time also this blade has get a new stain and the blade shows a fine pamor. Still don't have a sarung for this blade but like you see I don't forget my blades also when it need some time! Do you think that this blade is it worth to get a proper sarung? Attached Images

19th July 2011, 09:03 AM	#28
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Thks David for your opinion....and to certain extent I agree... but pls take a look at this pic Attached Images

27th June 2009, 05:19 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	From what I can see it looks nicely executed . I like the ada ada and the strongly defined work in the sorsoran . Any ideas yourself, Ferry ? E. Jawa ?

27th June 2009, 08:39 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,783	Thank you Rick for comment. Yes, my guess is also East Java. The long ada ada I also like. Any ideas which dapur this can be? Detlef

28th June 2009, 04:35 AM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,783	Dear Pak Ganja, maybe I am completly wrong, but Panimbal don't have a lambe gajah, or? PS: my name is Detlef and not Ferry.

28th June 2009, 04:35 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	In my opinion, not a Javanese blade. That is not a Javanese ada-ada, the ron dha is abysmal, but the overall garap is Bali --- and the length:- 16"? Jawa? Nggak. I reckon this is a Lombok blade --- they seem to like those funny sticky up ada - ada.

29th June 2009, 01:17 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Sajen, many, if not most things in the world of the keris are not carved in stone. In fact, in Jawa, it is not only names concerned with keris that change, names of many things change from town to town, village to village and even person to person. The Javanese language is referred to by linguists as a non-standard language. Each speaker of the language seems to believe that each word he utters is his own personal property and he can do as he will with it. Bearing in mind the strict heirarchy of formal Javanese, this phenomenon does seem rather peculiar. In any case, from this base, we find a lot of variation in definitions of the meanings of words, and this flows through into definition in many other areas. When we look at definitions as they apply to the form of keris, those definitions strictly speaking should flow from criteria set down by the various Karatons, however, at the present time the criteria of the various keris forms, or dhapur, appear to be able to be defined by anybody who has a following of believers. In another recent thread we found a further example of variation in the definition of dhapur. Speaking only for myself, I feel it is perhaps best not to become too entangled in discussion of dhapur. You could well have as many opinions on any specific dhapur as there are keris study groups. Now, in the case of this blade, as I have said, I do not accept this as a Javanese blade, if this is so, it really cannot be defined in Javanese terms, so it is not really correct to try to afix any Javanese dhapur name to it.

29th June 2009, 04:54 AM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Its finished Ferry --- according to the man who made it. Its just not finished to a high standard. Don't forget that very often a lowly keris will be made with very limited tools. The final finishing was often done with pieces of stone or terra cotta, and the final polish with ground terra cotta and water, or ground coral and water.

9th July 2009, 03:18 PM	#15
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	A few hours with wet & dry paper, a light re-etch, and you'll have something pretty OK. When we buy keris from outside the culture it is not at all unusual to expect to have to do a bit of work to bring them to where they should be.

17th July 2011, 06:22 PM	#20
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,125	Detlef, another fine job bringing an old blade back to life. I certainly thing it deserves some good dressing and would recommend something in a Bali form since i believe Alan was probably right about this being a Lombok blade.

18th July 2011, 10:48 AM	#22
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	IMHO, Jawa or Lombok or even Bali provenance does not really matter, as I believe though the forging is quite well done, the blade was not made by an Empu or at least a Pandai keris. Look at the tips of the sogokan, and compare that with the blumbangan cleavage near the gandik. If its an empu made, definitely the line of the blumbangan would be nicely touch the tips of the sogokan, and cross the middle of 2nd luk. Any blade made by an empu or pande of any provenance / era would stick to this rule.

19th July 2011, 10:45 AM	#29
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Penangsang, I am having a great deal of difficulty in understanding exactly what you mean when you say:- "--- the line of the blumbangan would be nicely touch the tips of the sogokan, and cross the middle of 2nd luk---" I have had not a little instruction in the layout of keris that conform to Surakarta and Mataram tangguh. My teachers in this have been Empu Suparman Supowijaya and Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo, additionally I count amongst my close friends several working pande keris. I am unable to align anything I have ever heard from any of these people with what I think you might be saying. I have looked at several keris that are in my care which are attributed to noted makers, such as Empu Jayasukadgo, Empu Kinom, Empu Guling, and I cannot align what I see in these blades with what you have written. Could I trouble you to clarify exactly what you mean by the statement I have quoted above? Thank you.