Kebo Lajer with Kul buntet - opinions?

erikscollectables · 28th June 2009, 07:28 PM

Well I can imagine the gold melt away during the actual forging.
On the other hand the gold specs do not look like they have been added afterwards. No idea how this works.

Regards, Erik

Jonno · 14th July 2009, 11:29 AM

Can anyone tell me the meaning of the small gold dots in lower part?

Best regards,
John

David · 14th July 2009, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonno

Can anyone tell me the meaning of the small gold dots in lower part?

Best regards,
John

Welcome to the forum John. I think Sajen is probably correct. The gold dots probably do not have any meaning on their own, they are probably just residual of gold work that was once on the blade.

A. G. Maisey · 14th July 2009, 11:52 PM

Erik, I have a few questions about these gold specks:-

1) have they been tested and confirmed as being gold?

2) if they have been tested, what carat gold are they? ( this is important as it could give an indication of originality)

3) is there any gold in the lower parts of the blade surface, or is it confined to high points on the blade?

4) is there gold on both sides of the blade ?

5) has an examination under high magnification been carried out to attempt to determine how these gold specks are fixed to the blade?

6) do we have any provenance? (by this I mean has this keris come directly from Indonesia, or has it been in a western culture for some period of time?)

7) the blade stain appears to be quite fresh; do we know where this was done, and how long ago?

The yellowish specks that I can see do not appear to be in a place or pattern that would indicate residual kinatah work, additionally the blade form (dhapur) is one that is very, very seldom found with kinatah work.If a conscientious examination were to be carried out some plausible explanation for these specks may be able to be proposed, but in the absence of such examination all we can do is guess.

David · 15th July 2009, 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The yellowish specks that I can see do not appear to be in a place or pattern that would indicate residual kinatah work, additionally the blade form (dhapur) is one that is very, very seldom found with kinatah work.

This occurred to me, but i couldn't think how else it might appear in this form. And you are certainly right that this dhapur is rarely gets kinatah. Can't say i have ever seen it.

A. G. Maisey · 15th July 2009, 04:42 AM

I spent a long time looking at that area with the specks, David, and it seems to me as if something has dragged across it.

The first thing that must be established is if it is gold or not.

Jonno · 15th July 2009, 03:30 PM

Hi, My name is John, I am new on this forum.

The keris in question is mine. Erik has put it on this forum to collect some information about it.

Thanking you all for your time and inforanswers.

Hi Maisey,

1) have they been tested and confirmed as being gold?

I didn’t test it, but it looks like gold foil.

2) if they have been tested, what carat gold are they? ( this is important as it could give an indication of originality)

3) is there any gold in the lower parts of the blade surface, or is it confined to high points on the blade?

No, only the lower parts. Not higher than gandik.

4) is there gold on both sides of the blade ?

No, on one side.

5) has an examination under high magnification been carried out to attempt to determine how these gold specks are fixed to the blade?

I can see the gold on the blade, not in or between.
Looks like thin foil

6) do we have any provenance? (by this I mean has this keris come directly from Indonesia, or has it been in a western culture for some period of time?)

The Keris has came directly from Indonesia

7) the blade stain appears to be quite fresh; do we know where this was done, and how long ago?

Atleast more then 30 years ago, that’s what they told me. It is a fine item and it came from a reliable source.

I also think something has dragged across it....
Best regards,
John

Sajen · 14th July 2009, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erikscollectables

Well I can imagine the gold melt away during the actual forging.
On the other hand the gold specs do not look like they have been added afterwards. No idea how this works.

Regards, Erik

Hello Erik,

one reason why there are golden spots at the blade may be that this keris have had gold somewhere originally.
I have a Sumatra keris which have had a gold covering in up from the ganja and also in the front from ganja and at the gandik. When I get this keris the blade also have had some gold spots at the blade. After a warangan you can see only a small piece of gold between ganja and blade in the gandik part. This gold spots maybe have been there from opened gold film and abrasive wear from extraction the blade from sheat. I try to take a picture from this.

sajen

28th June 2009, 07:28 PM	#1
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	Well I can imagine the gold melt away during the actual forging. On the other hand the gold specs do not look like they have been added afterwards. No idea how this works. Regards, Erik

14th July 2009, 11:29 AM	#2
Jonno Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 51	Can anyone tell me the meaning of the small gold dots in lower part? Best regards, John

14th July 2009, 11:52 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Erik, I have a few questions about these gold specks:- 1) have they been tested and confirmed as being gold? 2) if they have been tested, what carat gold are they? ( this is important as it could give an indication of originality) 3) is there any gold in the lower parts of the blade surface, or is it confined to high points on the blade? 4) is there gold on both sides of the blade ? 5) has an examination under high magnification been carried out to attempt to determine how these gold specks are fixed to the blade? 6) do we have any provenance? (by this I mean has this keris come directly from Indonesia, or has it been in a western culture for some period of time?) 7) the blade stain appears to be quite fresh; do we know where this was done, and how long ago? The yellowish specks that I can see do not appear to be in a place or pattern that would indicate residual kinatah work, additionally the blade form (dhapur) is one that is very, very seldom found with kinatah work.If a conscientious examination were to be carried out some plausible explanation for these specks may be able to be proposed, but in the absence of such examination all we can do is guess.

15th July 2009, 04:42 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	I spent a long time looking at that area with the specks, David, and it seems to me as if something has dragged across it. The first thing that must be established is if it is gold or not.

15th July 2009, 03:30 PM	#7
Jonno Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 51	Hi, My name is John, I am new on this forum. The keris in question is mine. Erik has put it on this forum to collect some information about it. Thanking you all for your time and inforanswers. Hi Maisey, 1) have they been tested and confirmed as being gold? I didn’t test it, but it looks like gold foil. 2) if they have been tested, what carat gold are they? ( this is important as it could give an indication of originality) 3) is there any gold in the lower parts of the blade surface, or is it confined to high points on the blade? No, only the lower parts. Not higher than gandik. 4) is there gold on both sides of the blade ? No, on one side. 5) has an examination under high magnification been carried out to attempt to determine how these gold specks are fixed to the blade? I can see the gold on the blade, not in or between. Looks like thin foil 6) do we have any provenance? (by this I mean has this keris come directly from Indonesia, or has it been in a western culture for some period of time?) The Keris has came directly from Indonesia 7) the blade stain appears to be quite fresh; do we know where this was done, and how long ago? Atleast more then 30 years ago, that’s what they told me. It is a fine item and it came from a reliable source. I also think something has dragged across it.... Best regards, John