Keris blade

Sajen · 28th June 2009, 03:35 AM

Dear Pak Ganja,

maybe I am completly wrong, but Panimbal don't have a lambe gajah, or?

PS: my name is Detlef and not Ferry.

ganjawulung · 28th June 2009, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

maybe I am completly wrong, but Panimbal don't have a lambe gajah, or?

PS: my name is Detlef and not Ferry.

I apologize, Detlef for the wrong mentioning of your name... Panimbal usually has lambe gajah. Even there are two different opinions on this. Either one (Mr Haryono Guritno, for instance) or two lambe gajah (Mr Harsrinuksmo)... You may check also in "Dhapur" book which based on Pangeran Hadiwidjojo's sources....

GANJAWULUNG

Sajen · 28th June 2009, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

I apologize, Detlef for the wrong mentioning of your name... Panimbal usually has lambe gajah. Even there are two different opinions on this. Either one (Mr Haryono Guritno, for instance) or two lambe gajah (Mr Harsrinuksmo)... You may check also in "Dhapur" book which based on Pangeran Hadiwidjojo's sources....

GANJAWULUNG

Dear Ganjawulung,

you are right, Haryono Guritno describe it with one lambe gajah and all features you write before. I check my sources and now I am complete confused. Tammens for example describe it without sekar kacang and without lambe gajah (this don't mean so much, it's not the first mistake I found by him). But the same like he describe in his first book I found by picture in the new book "The Javanese Kris" from Groneman on page 167 from an old source from 1859, a drawing described as "dapoer Paniembal" also without sekar kacang and lambe gajah. So Tammens maybe use this old source? And what is now correct for dapur Panimbal? It's a big different if a keris have sekar kacang or not! If there are one or two lambe gajah maybe already essential for a correct description of a dapur but if there a sekar kacang or not, this is a complete different dapur!!!

sajen

A. G. Maisey · 28th June 2009, 03:35 PM

In my opinion, not a Javanese blade.

That is not a Javanese ada-ada, the ron dha is abysmal, but the overall garap is Bali --- and the length:- 16"? Jawa? Nggak.

I reckon this is a Lombok blade --- they seem to like those funny sticky up ada - ada.

Sajen · 28th June 2009, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In my opinion, not a Javanese blade.

That is not a Javanese ada-ada, the ron dha is abysmal, but the overall garap is Bali --- and the length:- 16"? Jawa? Nggak.

I reckon this is a Lombok blade --- they seem to like those funny sticky up ada - ada.

Thank you Mr. Maisey, like usual from you a very logical desicion.

You can give me maybe also a explanation for my confusion about the two completly different descriptions from the dapur Panimbal?

sajen

A. G. Maisey · 29th June 2009, 12:17 AM

Sajen, many, if not most things in the world of the keris are not carved in stone.

In fact, in Jawa, it is not only names concerned with keris that change, names of many things change from town to town, village to village and even person to person. The Javanese language is referred to by linguists as a non-standard language. Each speaker of the language seems to believe that each word he utters is his own personal property and he can do as he will with it. Bearing in mind the strict heirarchy of formal Javanese, this phenomenon does seem rather peculiar.

In any case, from this base, we find a lot of variation in definitions of the meanings of words, and this flows through into definition in many other areas. When we look at definitions as they apply to the form of keris, those definitions strictly speaking should flow from criteria set down by the various Karatons, however, at the present time the criteria of the various keris forms, or dhapur, appear to be able to be defined by anybody who has a following of believers.

In another recent thread we found a further example of variation in the definition of dhapur.

Speaking only for myself, I feel it is perhaps best not to become too entangled in discussion of dhapur. You could well have as many opinions on any specific dhapur as there are keris study groups.

Now, in the case of this blade, as I have said, I do not accept this as a Javanese blade, if this is so, it really cannot be defined in Javanese terms, so it is not really correct to try to afix any Javanese dhapur name to it.

28th June 2009, 03:35 AM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,214	Dear Pak Ganja, maybe I am completly wrong, but Panimbal don't have a lambe gajah, or? PS: my name is Detlef and not Ferry.

28th June 2009, 03:35 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	In my opinion, not a Javanese blade. That is not a Javanese ada-ada, the ron dha is abysmal, but the overall garap is Bali --- and the length:- 16"? Jawa? Nggak. I reckon this is a Lombok blade --- they seem to like those funny sticky up ada - ada.

29th June 2009, 12:17 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Sajen, many, if not most things in the world of the keris are not carved in stone. In fact, in Jawa, it is not only names concerned with keris that change, names of many things change from town to town, village to village and even person to person. The Javanese language is referred to by linguists as a non-standard language. Each speaker of the language seems to believe that each word he utters is his own personal property and he can do as he will with it. Bearing in mind the strict heirarchy of formal Javanese, this phenomenon does seem rather peculiar. In any case, from this base, we find a lot of variation in definitions of the meanings of words, and this flows through into definition in many other areas. When we look at definitions as they apply to the form of keris, those definitions strictly speaking should flow from criteria set down by the various Karatons, however, at the present time the criteria of the various keris forms, or dhapur, appear to be able to be defined by anybody who has a following of believers. In another recent thread we found a further example of variation in the definition of dhapur. Speaking only for myself, I feel it is perhaps best not to become too entangled in discussion of dhapur. You could well have as many opinions on any specific dhapur as there are keris study groups. Now, in the case of this blade, as I have said, I do not accept this as a Javanese blade, if this is so, it really cannot be defined in Javanese terms, so it is not really correct to try to afix any Javanese dhapur name to it.