Naga keris - original?

Gustav · 27th June 2009, 07:15 PM

Hallo David, thanks for welcome also.

It is just my humble opinion. The line between ganja and the rest is just to perfect, very straight. From there comes the stifness in the appearance.
What is interesting for me : the examples are POSSIBLY all from East-Java, POSSIBLY from the second half of 19th century.

Sorry for borrowing the pictures! I hope, I made no mistake.

David · 28th June 2009, 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

It is just my humble opinion. The line between ganja and the rest is just to perfect, very straight. From there comes the stifness in the appearance.
What is interesting for me : the examples are POSSIBLY all from East-Java, POSSIBLY from the second half of 19th century.

Gustav, the more i look at your blade the more i believe Rick (and you of course) is right. Most probably gonjo iras. I doubt this is the case with Erik's blade though. As for Willem's blade from the other thread, i see why you question it, but frankly i cannot tell from his photos. It is clearly cut through at the tail end of the gonjo which would be a little unusual with gonjo iras, but not impossible. Perhaps Willem can answer your question. If i had this keris in hand i would probably take a pin and see if i could push it through the separation. Might just be gunk in there.
I will say that if you are questioning or trying to make a case for gonjo iras blades being more popular in East Jawa during the late 19th century i am not convinced that you will find any compelling evidence to support that case. In my limited experience at least, gonjo iras blades have always been the exception in any given time period or area unless, of course, we are discussing keris sajen which are usually gonjo iras.

Gustav · 28th June 2009, 12:19 PM

"As for Willem's blade from the other thread, i see why you question it, but frankly i cannot tell from his photos. It is clearly cut through at the tail end of the gonjo which would be a little unusual with gonjo iras, but not impossible. " (by David)

What was interesting for me, that in my example somebody has tryed to make look a ganja iras blade like a normal blade (especially at greneng).

I absolutely can not be sure about Willems blade, but if it is ganja iras (sorry about speculation), there is the same intention. This intention was the point for me: to make something simple to appear
more elaborated (and more expensive, of course).

For the naga blade: I must excuse me, I see, the ganja must be separate.( I thought it is not because of the very straight and clean line between, the opening behind of the "beard" of naga (that goes up to ganja), and the appearance at gandik area.)
Sorry for the stolen time and space!

A. G. Maisey · 28th June 2009, 03:27 PM

There are several ways in which a plain blade can be altered to a picture blade --- ie, a blade with a naga or singo barong or whatever.

You can start with a big blade and take material from the tip, which is then welded back at the gandik and carved; or you can try to match the pamor from another similar blade, then you can cover the joint with kinatah work. The very first keris I bought in Indonesia was made in this way.

Very popular was to start with a nice big blade, often a Tuban blade, add nothing, and turn it into a much smaller picture blade.

Or you can start with a Bali blade, and give it a total Jawa treatment, turning it into a Majapahit keris.

These are perhaps the most common "improvements", but there are others.

The blade under discussion here has some rather peculiar features and inconsistencies. Lets just look at this blade without trying to be too correct about terminology.

Look at the proportions:- not good; in fact very peculiar. The blade is stiff, the gonjo is too wide, and flat, and in fact downright ugly. The waves do not leave any feeling of peace in your chest, they are unsettling and awkward, there is no harmony in those waves, and the sorsoran is way out of proportion for the rest of body. If this blade were a man I'd say he was distinctly gawky.

Now look at the surface of the blade:- heavily textured. This surface has seen a lot of acidic solution, but look at the carving of the naga:- clean, crisp, sharp edges to the details, neat round holes, neat, clean eye, maybe even some file marks in a couple of places. I do not think this naga aged at the same rate as the rest of the blade. However, if we try to run extension lines from the ends of the gonjo, the proportions are even worse, unless we run those lines all the way to the point and draw an entirely new pawakan --- then it starts to look right.

Have a look at the grain of the pamor:- does it follow the waves? I rather think not, in fact in a couple of places it seems to curve the opposite way to the wave.

Now have a look at the piercing between the dragon and the gonjo:- clean, smooth, sharp, and entirely out of character.

If we were to write a description of the pamor of the keris we are discussing, and a description of the pamor type associated with Mpu Kasa, yeah, they would read pretty much the same, but I reckon Mpu Kasa would haunt forever anybody who tried to hang this keris on him --- in fact I reckon he might be spinning in his grave right now.

Just looking at the photos, there are a number of different opinions that could be formed about this keris, and personally, I would not be prepared to form any definite opinions unless I handled it, but there are sufficient inconsistencies to make me just a little cautious in respect of this keris.

The alteration of keris blades is not a new thing. It has been going on for a very long time, and I have seen a lot of genuinely old alterations, for instance, on keris that went to Holland well over 100 years ago.

27th June 2009, 07:15 PM	#1
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	Hallo David, thanks for welcome also. It is just my humble opinion. The line between ganja and the rest is just to perfect, very straight. From there comes the stifness in the appearance. What is interesting for me : the examples are POSSIBLY all from East-Java, POSSIBLY from the second half of 19th century. Sorry for borrowing the pictures! I hope, I made no mistake. Attached Images

28th June 2009, 12:19 PM	#3
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	"As for Willem's blade from the other thread, i see why you question it, but frankly i cannot tell from his photos. It is clearly cut through at the tail end of the gonjo which would be a little unusual with gonjo iras, but not impossible. " (by David) What was interesting for me, that in my example somebody has tryed to make look a ganja iras blade like a normal blade (especially at greneng). I absolutely can not be sure about Willems blade, but if it is ganja iras (sorry about speculation), there is the same intention. This intention was the point for me: to make something simple to appear more elaborated (and more expensive, of course). For the naga blade: I must excuse me, I see, the ganja must be separate.( I thought it is not because of the very straight and clean line between, the opening behind of the "beard" of naga (that goes up to ganja), and the appearance at gandik area.) Sorry for the stolen time and space!

28th June 2009, 03:27 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,017	There are several ways in which a plain blade can be altered to a picture blade --- ie, a blade with a naga or singo barong or whatever. You can start with a big blade and take material from the tip, which is then welded back at the gandik and carved; or you can try to match the pamor from another similar blade, then you can cover the joint with kinatah work. The very first keris I bought in Indonesia was made in this way. Very popular was to start with a nice big blade, often a Tuban blade, add nothing, and turn it into a much smaller picture blade. Or you can start with a Bali blade, and give it a total Jawa treatment, turning it into a Majapahit keris. These are perhaps the most common "improvements", but there are others. The blade under discussion here has some rather peculiar features and inconsistencies. Lets just look at this blade without trying to be too correct about terminology. Look at the proportions:- not good; in fact very peculiar. The blade is stiff, the gonjo is too wide, and flat, and in fact downright ugly. The waves do not leave any feeling of peace in your chest, they are unsettling and awkward, there is no harmony in those waves, and the sorsoran is way out of proportion for the rest of body. If this blade were a man I'd say he was distinctly gawky. Now look at the surface of the blade:- heavily textured. This surface has seen a lot of acidic solution, but look at the carving of the naga:- clean, crisp, sharp edges to the details, neat round holes, neat, clean eye, maybe even some file marks in a couple of places. I do not think this naga aged at the same rate as the rest of the blade. However, if we try to run extension lines from the ends of the gonjo, the proportions are even worse, unless we run those lines all the way to the point and draw an entirely new pawakan --- then it starts to look right. Have a look at the grain of the pamor:- does it follow the waves? I rather think not, in fact in a couple of places it seems to curve the opposite way to the wave. Now have a look at the piercing between the dragon and the gonjo:- clean, smooth, sharp, and entirely out of character. If we were to write a description of the pamor of the keris we are discussing, and a description of the pamor type associated with Mpu Kasa, yeah, they would read pretty much the same, but I reckon Mpu Kasa would haunt forever anybody who tried to hang this keris on him --- in fact I reckon he might be spinning in his grave right now. Just looking at the photos, there are a number of different opinions that could be formed about this keris, and personally, I would not be prepared to form any definite opinions unless I handled it, but there are sufficient inconsistencies to make me just a little cautious in respect of this keris. The alteration of keris blades is not a new thing. It has been going on for a very long time, and I have seen a lot of genuinely old alterations, for instance, on keris that went to Holland well over 100 years ago.