Naga keris - original?

kai · 26th June 2009, 02:28 AM

Hello Alan,

Quote:

I have not yet seen this type of pamor in a recent keris that originated in Central Jawa, when I see this type of pamor my first thought is always East Jawa/Madura, and prior to about 1980.

How about earlier pieces from central Jawa? (Not in reference to the keris under discussion - just for curiosity and learning

)

Quote:

I believe a close investigation of the other areas you mention might reveal that insofar as blades are concerned you are looking at distribution centers for East Jawa production

I've seen those recent trade blades, too. In addition, there seem to be "local traditions." I'll add pics when I come across such pieces.

Quote:

this is a fairly new phenomenon, I believe. Going back ten or fifteen years I did not see anything much except older pieces coming out of those areas in Sumatra.

I'm not sure about the exact timeframe but this does seem to be a revival/added income thing following the Jawa/Madura story, indeed.

Quote:

Regarding Peninsula production, I have no personal knowledge, but I have had blades referred to me by people in Malaysia who told me that they were the product of Malaysian makers, however, as far as I am concerned, those blades originated in Sumenep.

There is ongoing keris production in Malaysia for a limited local medium/high-end market, especially in the northern states AFAIK. There also seems to be local production in very low-end pieces (mainly for wedding ceremonies).

Quote:

It is most definitely not correct to brand every keris of less than good quality as a "keris-like-object".

I noticed another thread just posted within the last hour or so. There you can see a KLO.

Yes, point taken. I agree that the nominer KLO should be confined to the latter piece (that one is an undisputable example) - I was kinda mixing both threads.

Quote:

The volume of sales to tourists and outside the local market is minimal.

In the overall picture this may be correct. However, there seem to be typical tourist destinations which are flooded with products specifically aimed at the respective buyers like the Lake Toba area (or Kuching with mandau-like objects, etc.).

Quote:

Occasionally you will find a horror with batik pamor on a flat iron blade, but I haven't noticed any of this garbage in maybe 20 years.

You've been looking in the wrong places - these are still very much around pouring out of Bali in the usual gaudy fittings!

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 26th June 2009, 03:35 AM

Kai, I'm not going to attempt to respond to all of your post.
I have stated my opinion based upon my experience. I have no intention of defending that opinion, and I have no interest at all in whether it is accepted or not. I have simply given a little of my time to pass along some things that I believe to be true. I am not addressing the question of hilts, scabbards and other dress, my comments apply only to blades.

However, I will add this:-

Regarding Lake Toba and other tourist destinations in SE Asia.
The keris that I have seen coming out of those areas in recent years have all had either old, very low quality blades or recent Madura blades.Dress has varied, and I'm not commenting here on dress.

Regarding what has been available in Bali during the last ten years.

Perhaps I have been looking in the wrong places. When I am in Bali I routinely vist three well known keris dealers, all the antique shops in Klungkung, some of the antique and art shops in the Mas-Ubud area, all the antique/art/craft shops that I know of in the Kuta- Legian area, and occasionally the big market in Den Pasar and some of the art shops in Den Pasar.I never visit Sanur nor do I visit some of the outlying tourist destinations.

I thought I had the ground pretty well covered, but I admit, I've only been doing the rounds in Bali since 1974 --- my visits before that were mostly concentrated on the beach --- and it is entirely possible that there may be sellers around of whom I do not know.

However, although I saw a fair representation of flat iron batik blades through into the early 1990's, I have not seen any during the last ten years or so --- none that were presented as real keris, in any case. I have noticed a few very, very rubbishy Javanese things with hawkers and in little stalls, but these could never be confused with a keris, the prices equate to the cost of decent cup of coffee. Serious attempts at keris as tourist souvenirs have pretty much disappeared, and have been replaced by genuine low quality blades in dress that will appeal to western tourists, and tourists from other parts of Indonesia. During the last few years there have been a lot of tourists in Bali from Jakarta, Surabaya and other major cities. Foriegn tourists have decreased a fair bit.

Regarding the pamor on the keris in question, I thought I had already covered that query about pamor.
When I see this pamor I need some sort of solid evidence to convince me that it is not East Jawa, and from prior to 1980.
This sort of heavily textured ngulit semangko pamor may occur in Central Javanese keris, but I cannot recall having seen it.

ganjawulung · 26th June 2009, 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

How about earlier pieces from central Jawa? (Not in reference to the keris under discussion - just for curiosity and learning

)

Dear Kai,
Just for sharing pictures. This is one of my "naga" collection, not newly keris piece IMHO. A Mataramese style keris with dhapur of "Naga Kikik" luk five, in Yogyakartan sheath...

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 26th June 2009, 04:19 AM

Yes Pak Ganja, typical of its type, but in no way similar to the pamor in the keris that has been under discussion.

I'm out of this discussion for the next 2 or 3 days. Personal committments.

Jean · 26th June 2009, 09:14 AM

Hello gentlemen,
I am a new member to this forum altough I have followed your discussions with a strong interest for several years. I decided to join especially because I was the previous owner of this kris before it fled to the NL... For those of you who have my book, you can see it on picture 28E.
I bought it on Ebay few years ago from an American seller who did not know anything about it but it was said to be part of an estate collection if I remember well.... The sheath is in jurigan madurese style and is semi old although the silver attachements may be recently made. The blade fits perfectly into the slot, which was not recently cut if I remember well. The original hilt was in rare bajing loncat style and also semi-old or old, and this was the priority incentive for me for buying the kris.
I had obviously the same questions as yourselves about the age of the blade, I sent the picture to at least one Indonesian expert but he was not too sure about it but inclined to think that it is old. I lived in Indonesia and saw thousands of kris blades but not a single one which I could remember as having a similar pamor as this one (roughly applied and very shiny but different from the usual tourist krisses). Accordingly I would personally concur with Alan to believe that this is probably a village-quality blade made in Madura about 50 years ago.
Best regards
Jean

David · 26th June 2009, 03:20 PM

Hi Jean. Thanks for your input and welcome to the forum.

Please forgive me, but i am afraid that i do not recognize your identity just from your first name. What book on keris did you write?

tunggulametung · 26th June 2009, 05:47 PM

Hello,

Just wanted to add to the discussion that from own experience I've seen some what I believe older pieces/have some age with similar pamor work coming from Madura, the blade shape as well. The other good example of pamor and other blade workmanship attributed to Madura (sometimes also East Java) is on photo 28A on Jean's book.

Can't say that the naga is later addition or not but I think it is a rare occasions for people adding a naga later. If the price of a keris with naga is a question, it might be cheaper to buy a complete keris with naga (say of the equal quality) then to commision a naga carving to a 'normal/standard' gandik.

Hello Jean, welcome to the forum...

Thanks.

Jean · 26th June 2009, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Hello,

Can't say that the naga is later addition or not but I think it is a rare occasions for people adding a naga later.

Hello Jean, welcome to the forum...

Hello Chandra,

Thank you for the welcome and I would agree that the naga was not added later on this blade as there is no trace of welding or any discontinuity in the pamor.
Best regards
Jean

Jean · 26th June 2009, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Hi Jean. Thanks for your input and welcome to the forum.

What book on keris did you write?

Hi David,

Thank you for the welcome and congratulations for your work and also to all the members of the forum! The title of my book is "The Kris, a passion from Indonesia", I self-published it in January 2008 and Alam Shah made a review at that time.
Best regards
Jean

David · 26th June 2009, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Hi David,

Thank you for the welcome and congratulations for your work and also to all the members of the forum! The title of my book is "The Kris, a passion from Indonesia", I self-published it in January 2008 and Alam Shah made a review at that time.
Best regards
Jean

Thanks Jean. I did a google search for "keris book jean" and found this info out and of course i do remember when this book had it's release. Sorry to say that i do not own it yet, but it looks interesting.

erikscollectables · 28th June 2009, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear Kai,
Just for sharing pictures. This is one of my "naga" collection, not newly keris piece IMHO. A Mataramese style keris with dhapur of "Naga Kikik" luk five, in Yogyakartan sheath...

GANJAWULUNG

Hello Ganjawulung,

Thanks for sharing this keris, very very nice.
I have a similar example unfortunately the condition is not so good.
It came from an old Dutch collection but unfortunately was not kept very well. I think it is a very old blade and the kikik is original in my opinion.

Regards, Erik

David · 28th June 2009, 07:55 PM

Eek! Were they using a wire to hold the hilt tight on the blade!

I would replace that with cloth if it were in my hands.

erikscollectables · 28th June 2009, 08:08 PM

Yes I should change that. I always use old batik cloth myself. It is copperwire which should not do to much harm but I'll change it anyway. Erik

David · 28th June 2009, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erikscollectables

Yes I should change that. I always use old batik cloth myself. It is copperwire which should not do to much harm but I'll change it anyway. Erik

I would be afraid that it would wear into the wood on the inside of the hilt when you twist it on. I don't think it would hurt the blade much.

Sajen · 28th June 2009, 10:33 PM

Hi Erik,

I like this blade and think that the kikik is original indeed. You have a sheat for it?

sajen

26th June 2009, 09:14 AM	#5
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Naga keris - original? Hello gentlemen, I am a new member to this forum altough I have followed your discussions with a strong interest for several years. I decided to join especially because I was the previous owner of this kris before it fled to the NL... For those of you who have my book, you can see it on picture 28E. I bought it on Ebay few years ago from an American seller who did not know anything about it but it was said to be part of an estate collection if I remember well.... The sheath is in jurigan madurese style and is semi old although the silver attachements may be recently made. The blade fits perfectly into the slot, which was not recently cut if I remember well. The original hilt was in rare bajing loncat style and also semi-old or old, and this was the priority incentive for me for buying the kris. I had obviously the same questions as yourselves about the age of the blade, I sent the picture to at least one Indonesian expert but he was not too sure about it but inclined to think that it is old. I lived in Indonesia and saw thousands of kris blades but not a single one which I could remember as having a similar pamor as this one (roughly applied and very shiny but different from the usual tourist krisses). Accordingly I would personally concur with Alan to believe that this is probably a village-quality blade made in Madura about 50 years ago. Best regards Jean

26th June 2009, 03:35 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,017	Kai, I'm not going to attempt to respond to all of your post. I have stated my opinion based upon my experience. I have no intention of defending that opinion, and I have no interest at all in whether it is accepted or not. I have simply given a little of my time to pass along some things that I believe to be true. I am not addressing the question of hilts, scabbards and other dress, my comments apply only to blades. However, I will add this:- Regarding Lake Toba and other tourist destinations in SE Asia. The keris that I have seen coming out of those areas in recent years have all had either old, very low quality blades or recent Madura blades.Dress has varied, and I'm not commenting here on dress. Regarding what has been available in Bali during the last ten years. Perhaps I have been looking in the wrong places. When I am in Bali I routinely vist three well known keris dealers, all the antique shops in Klungkung, some of the antique and art shops in the Mas-Ubud area, all the antique/art/craft shops that I know of in the Kuta- Legian area, and occasionally the big market in Den Pasar and some of the art shops in Den Pasar.I never visit Sanur nor do I visit some of the outlying tourist destinations. I thought I had the ground pretty well covered, but I admit, I've only been doing the rounds in Bali since 1974 --- my visits before that were mostly concentrated on the beach --- and it is entirely possible that there may be sellers around of whom I do not know. However, although I saw a fair representation of flat iron batik blades through into the early 1990's, I have not seen any during the last ten years or so --- none that were presented as real keris, in any case. I have noticed a few very, very rubbishy Javanese things with hawkers and in little stalls, but these could never be confused with a keris, the prices equate to the cost of decent cup of coffee. Serious attempts at keris as tourist souvenirs have pretty much disappeared, and have been replaced by genuine low quality blades in dress that will appeal to western tourists, and tourists from other parts of Indonesia. During the last few years there have been a lot of tourists in Bali from Jakarta, Surabaya and other major cities. Foriegn tourists have decreased a fair bit. Regarding the pamor on the keris in question, I thought I had already covered that query about pamor. When I see this pamor I need some sort of solid evidence to convince me that it is not East Jawa, and from prior to 1980. This sort of heavily textured ngulit semangko pamor may occur in Central Javanese keris, but I cannot recall having seen it.

26th June 2009, 04:19 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,017	Yes Pak Ganja, typical of its type, but in no way similar to the pamor in the keris that has been under discussion. I'm out of this discussion for the next 2 or 3 days. Personal committments.

26th June 2009, 03:20 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Hi Jean. Thanks for your input and welcome to the forum. Please forgive me, but i am afraid that i do not recognize your identity just from your first name. What book on keris did you write?

26th June 2009, 05:47 PM	#7
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	Hello, Just wanted to add to the discussion that from own experience I've seen some what I believe older pieces/have some age with similar pamor work coming from Madura, the blade shape as well. The other good example of pamor and other blade workmanship attributed to Madura (sometimes also East Java) is on photo 28A on Jean's book. Can't say that the naga is later addition or not but I think it is a rare occasions for people adding a naga later. If the price of a keris with naga is a question, it might be cheaper to buy a complete keris with naga (say of the equal quality) then to commision a naga carving to a 'normal/standard' gandik. Hello Jean, welcome to the forum... Thanks.

28th June 2009, 07:55 PM	#12
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Eek! Were they using a wire to hold the hilt tight on the blade! I would replace that with cloth if it were in my hands.

28th June 2009, 08:08 PM	#13
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	Yes I should change that. I always use old batik cloth myself. It is copperwire which should not do to much harm but I'll change it anyway. Erik

28th June 2009, 10:33 PM	#15
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,214	Hi Erik, I like this blade and think that the kikik is original indeed. You have a sheat for it? sajen