Why Post?

[Atlantia]

I've got to say that I don't mind people wanting to correctly ID items in preparation for selling.

Gentlemen, please don't feel like people are just using you (us) for free appraisals!
I think thats an important part of collecting and we none of us keep everything we buy. I believe that there are many reasons why someone might only choose whether they sell or not after they get the correct information about an item.
If this is a 'community of collectors' then clearly members will see possible 'bargains' or ones that they know will appeal to others, and want to acquire them 'on spec' in order to trade with other members for items that suit them better or sell to them to fund more suitable purchases for their own collections.
Why deny your friends on here information simply because it might help them achieve a good price for their items?
IMHO that doesn't exactly fit with the 'spirit' of a collecting group.
While the selling area is available, then it should be fine to ask for a clear ID in preparation for listing items there or anywhere else.

And, I humbly submit that there should be no stipulation on why such information is requested, if for no better reason that the receipt of such information may alter the owners decision to keep or sell!

From my own experience I often ask for help to ID an item BEFORE I decide if I'm going to keep it!
Examples?
Ashanti gold dust pot : Went straight on ebay!
Albacete Dagger : Now a prized exhibit in my collection when I'd thought I might have made a mistake in buying it before my friends here ID'd it for me!

For my own part I look back at 30+ years of collecting and know that I have traded and sold more beautiful pieces than I care to remember A wheel lock pistol that I'll never see the like of again, a wootz Tulwar before I knew what wootz even was literally hundreds of items. Some I needed to sell for financial reasons some I traded to keep one collection or another alive.
One thing I do know is that I could easily (with my first child on its way) find myself needing to sell everything from my many collections again! BUT, I will not mourn because there are always more beautiful things to own, and as with any antiques, we don't own them forever, we hold them briefly for future generations.

Now I do realise that I might be losing friends here, I sincerely hope that will not include those above who'se opinions I seem to be at odds with, as I do regard you as friends and respect your opinions and knowledge greatly.

Regards
Gene

[Atlantia]

" I was once told that it was said of Laking (Sir Guy Laking,
British arms historian and collector), that he would always
find something kind to say about a fellow collectors object".

May I just add...
Could any quote be more apt?
That should be the mantra of everyone using this site!



'Don't Player hate... congratulate'

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

" I was once told that it was said of Laking (Sir Guy Laking,
British arms historian and collector), that he would always
find something kind to say about a fellow collectors object".

May I just add...
Could any quote be more apt?
That should be the mantra of everyone using this site!



'Don't Player hate... congratulate'

I heartily agree Gene!

[KuKulzA28]

Thank you guys, well said, I'll keep it in mind, though being a novice, I am a "little child at the adult table"... I try to be as helpful as possible, but I end up asking questions more than I answer... I think sometimes people with my level of knowledge see how much more knowledgeable others are and are reluctant to speak... as the Chinese say fay hwa show jiang (don't say the obvious things so much).

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

Thank you guys, well said, I'll keep it in mind, though being a novice, I am a "little child at the adult table"... I try to be as helpful as possible, but I end up asking questions more than I answer... I think sometimes people with my level of knowledge see how much more knowledgeable others are and are reluctant to speak... as the Chinese say fay hwa show jiang (don't say the obvious things so much).

As I have said elsewhere in this thread, we are all learners, and always will be!
He who THINKS he is an expert, obviously knows everything, so should have no need for a Forum such as this!
If you have questions, keep asking as it is the way we all learn. Don't be reluctant to say even the obvious things. They might just be less obvious to others!
Regards Stu

[t_c]

Thanks for posting this Jim,
I really appreciate your encouragement. I have to admit I "lurked" here for a long time before I created an account; honestly because I wanted to buy something off the swap, but I've grown into it a little and tried to pitch in where I can, and ask questions when curious. I would encourage anyone else out there to do the same. I've made some comments here and there (hopefully without making too many eyes roll ) mainly regarding areas that I feel a little more comfortable in or at least think about more (been doing doing martial arts off and on for over a decade, so that's more my area of study). I have a good deal of reference books on arms (mostly Se Asian), but for me it's more about having the pictorial examples of traditional weaponry - I'm a visual and tactile sorta guy. I've always really appreciated the craft of metal working in regards to arms and armor, but an avid historian and researcher I am not. I use my books more for visual reference and don't recall a lot of the information even when I have made it through the book cover to cover. This forum is great for people like me with a little shorter attention span when it comes to history. I have always felt somewhat intimidated by the forum in general - there are a lot of forum members who do great research and have a lot of historical and general knowledge to share. I really respect your efforts in the scholarly realm and would hate to have you feel your efforts are unappreciated (especially by those who "lurk"), they are most certainly not, so thank you. In regards to friendly comments regarding someone's latest acquisition: I've always felt a little awkward just saying "nice find" etc. when I don't have any real insights on the item or questions to ask, but I really appreciate people sharing their acquisitions (and posts in general) with everyone - for me it's golden. I love seeing all the weapons of the world and the craftsmanship that goes into them and taking in the related discussion; so please, keep sharing and keep the dialog going, it's truly priceless (can you remember/imagine the world before the information age? )

Thanks to all and cheers,
Tom

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
I do think there is a definite difference in having an item I.D. and then deciding whether to keep it in your "private" collection, for whatever reason, and information seeking for commercial gain. I don't see any difference in a lawyer charging for his/her time and knowledge and anyone else parting with hard earned and time consuming expertise if the party in receipt of that information is just going to use it for commercial advantage. Perhaps a bit of transparency by those who "INTEND" to seek "ONGOING" financial gain would be to everyones advantage. If you are going to deal I'm sure many would still want to see and voice opinions about pieces but at least if it were known that there was a commercial aspect each member could decide whether to join in or not thereby avoiding any conflict. Just a thought.

Apart from the above digression it would seem clear that any and all information from Members is to be welcomed and 'don't be shy' with questions is to be positively encouraged. With this in mind I look forward to sharing many more hours of convivial banter with you all.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Jim McDougall]

It is truly great to see the ongoing dialogue here, and to see the range of perceptions and opinions related to this topic being openly discussed, this is exactly the kind of rapport that makes me feel proud to be a part of this ever growing and amazing group of members.

I think the consensus is generally that courtesy and respect should prevail above all, and common sense should be paramount in handling commercially related situations or selling and trading of weapons. It is important to note that while we are clearly all aware of the importance of establishing proper identification and integrity of weapons that are involved in either live auctions or sales, there is nothing that precludes members handling discussions of these items privately. It is only publicly via internationally published media, such as our forums clearly are, that matters can become problematic.

Tom, I would like to thank you for your very kind words, and am glad that you have joined in. It is clear that your knowledge is more 'hands on' and by the well written post, you express yourself well. This is exactly what my original purpose for beginning this thread, to bring in those like yourself who are out there and have much more to offer than they realize. The study of historical arms is not just taken from published material, but weapons seen and collected in the field; observed in collections and museums; found among heirlooms and estates of individuals who have collected them; from well travelled individuals far and wide.

We are after all internationally well represented here , and it is wonderful and amazing to see the harmony among such diverse cultures, religions, ethnicity and virtually all manner of groups. The input from everyone helps us not only learn about the history of arms, with such direct input, but promotes key understanding between all.

Kukulz, as Kahnjar has noted, beware 'experts', we are all students in varying degree, and are all here to learn together. Participation is key to effective learning, and in my case, I can only truly learn by gathering notes and information, then writing in text what I have found. In sharing that here, I always look forward to information others add, or in many cases corrections where I have erred.

In another thread for example, I made comments in a couple of places, and fortunately members well versed in the material at hand stepped forward to note that my statements were not entirely correct in those particular cases. This is exactly what I hope for..not to be wrong...but to be properly corrected as required, hopefully with substantiated support.

I full believe that here we are working together to study arms, discover and share evidence and resources, and above all to preserve this history as comprehensively as possible. It is our responsibility to accomplish this as thoroughly as we can, and it is not about being right or wrong...it is about being accurate. The more of us that work together in this, the better chance we have of being successful

Thanks very much everyone!
You're the best!

Jim

[celtan]

I do believe it was glorious Marlene who said

"If you don't have anything nice
to say about anyone,
please come and sit by my side..."



Just kiddin'..!


Manolo

Originally Posted by Atlantia

" I was once told that it was said of Laking (Sir Guy Laking,
British arms historian and collector), that he would always
find something kind to say about a fellow collectors object".

May I just add...
Could any quote be more apt?
That should be the mantra of everyone using this site!



'Don't Player hate... congratulate'

[Jim McDougall]

Celtan, thank you so very much. Those kind words mean more than you can imagine my friend, and the truth is that my manner is only reflective of the gentlemanly company here.
I very much appreciate your contributions, and your genuine comittment not only to learning, but to openly sharing your knowledge here. Very well placed comments, and you have my deepest respect.

Good one on the quote !!

All the best,
Jim

[Gavin Nugent]

Great question Jim;

Well, to learn of course...that is why we are here aren't we, surely it is not just a picture gallery with no intellectual content.
Even the big dealers pop in here to brush up on info even if they do not share what they may or may not know.

I think Celtan said it best Jim ;-). You are the pillar of the community. You are here with more well versed and referenced content than all the community combined and your vigor for these subjects is an inspiration to all concerned.
No discredit to the others of course, I for one know how limited time is....and to quote Barry in some posting a while back..."if I were a rich man"........I know I'd be a lot more active too.

Gene, your comments are perfect :-), though for me, whilst the three word "very Nice ......." reply is all very nice, it would benefit the whole community if a lot more active and probing questions were asked, though some just prefer to sit on the fence and smile.
Kind of reminds me of the old adage, if your not living on the edge your just taking up space...live on the edge guys, throw your thoughts out there to see what bounces back, don't be afraid and there is no such thing as a silly question.

Stu, your comment, I quote, “Just remember that none of us are experts and we are all still learning." It is so very true.

I cannot understand why individuals would not want to comment on a piece or identify a piece based on who posts it, why the secrets. Really, who cares if it sold on next week, one should feel good about doing a little good in the world, it certainly isn't directly impacting anyone surely?? Good people please clarify for me what would be robbed lost or stolen from an individual when this happens?? I can't see the wood for the trees.
Lew made a good comment some time back with regards to asking about something that may be sold in the near future too, say something like I may be passing this on shortly, but I would like to know something about it. A nice phrase I think.

Rick I like the following comment you made; the bottom line here is that we help identify yet do not openly give appraisals.

Jim, you've done it again, everyone is off their seat for a round of applause and you certainly got the brain cells hopping, this time, not hopping about a weapon but hopping about what makes us tick.
Everyone has their own reasons and I have expressed mine and thank to all who have shared theirs too.

Lee thanks for doing what you have done with this site.

Jim, well thanks for being Jim ;-)

I love this place!

Gav

[Jeff D]

Trust Jim to ask a question that I have been pondering for a while now myself.

I know my posting has diminished substantially, as have a number of others who were regulars here, and I have been wondering why?

I have recently read a book by Dan Ariely Predictably irrational , and I think he hints at the solution. He discusses the difference between social norms and market norms. Social norms being the activities we do for free, which are part of normal social behavior. Market norms are what we do for a living or expect to earn money from. To clarify he gives the example of trying to pay your mother-in-law $400.00 for preparing the family thanks-giving dinner (in my house the consequences would be too horrible to even contemplate), and yet a "gift" (wine, flowers, etc.) is quite acceptable.

I think these forums walk a extremely fine line between the two. Normally they are dependent on the social graces of the forumites to research and post information on pieces posted, I know this takes time and energy. The gift in return is the exposure of new pieces that expand all our knowledge. Jim, Jens, RSWORD, VANDOO, Lew, et al are the foundations of these forums. Of course Lee, our host, provides the venue for free. Now Imagine if Lee was to request $1.00 for every new post or tries to make money from the forum, how long would the forumites give free answers? This would rapidly become a ghost forum. I think we all have seen essentially this happen to at least one other forum.

The same applies to forumites who post only to get information to pump up their sales pitches, they have shifted from the social norms to the market norms, and should not be surprised that nobody but Jim (always Jim ) is willing to research their piece for free.

Bad social behavior can also get you ignored (complaining that the turkey is too dry). We all love our pieces (BTW Ariely also has a section on how we naturally over estimate the value of something we own), and all comments here should be politely given, as well as politely taken both good and bad . Do not post your piece if you only want to be told it is excalaber, nobody gains anything if the difference between excalaber and a Toledo wall hanger cannot be explained. Likewise the difference should be handled politely we are not paid appraisers, we would never tell someone that the gift bottle of wine "sucks" we politely take it and use it for cooking.

Sorry I have gone on too long and now I am late for work!

All the best
Jeff

[ward]

I could not have said it better Jeff and I believe you have hit on the reasons why some of the older posters no longer particapate.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Gentlemen, please don't feel like people are just using you (us) for free appraisals!

The bottom line here is that we help identify yet do not openly give appraisals .

I would suggest that a reasonable time pass before a forum identified piece would be listed in Swap .

It just seems more right .

Not policy; just my opinion .