Armour in the Wild West

aiontay · 20th June 2009, 04:21 AM

If the bone breastplates of past centuries were like the ones today (and I'm not aware that they are constructed any different except for those horrid plastic "bone" beads) then they weren't something I'd go in to battle wearing for protection. The shape of the bead- which tapers from the center in both directions- and the rather loose construction would make it easy for an arrow, lance, saber, knife etc to slip through. It might work against vertical/ diagonal cuts pretty well I suppose, but those glass beads might shatter. Likewise, while gorgets were and are still pretty popular (this time of year they're pretty commonly seen around here), I think even back in the 18th century they were more decorative than functional for most tribes.

Some of the California and NW Coast tribes had wooden armor made from rods, as well as leather armor. On the Northern Plains in the 18th Century there were war shirts made with multiple layers of hide with sand mixed with glue between each layer. These shirts dropped out of use as guns became more common. There were also occassional mail shirts that turned up on Plains.

Jim McDougall · 20th June 2009, 06:43 PM

Its great to see you in on this Aiontay, and of course your perspective on these hairpipe breastplates is very well placed. Great information on the hide layered with sand between layers, which I had never heard of, despite being aware of leather used as protection against arrows.

In looking further into more on the hairpipe regalia, which appears to have originated in about first quarter 19th century with Comanche's (though there are undoubtedly, as always ,varying opinions), these seem to have spread widely among southern Plains tribes, certainly farther with thier movements.

There is a pretty interesting account on these by John C. Ewers in
"Hair Pipes in Plains Indian Adornment: A Study in Indian and White Ingenuity", Anthropological Papers #50, Bureau of American Ethnology, Bulletin 164, Smithsonian reprint (from 1957), 1996. pp.29-85.

Basically it seems that the breastplates, much as the multi-row chokers, were essentially regalia and decorative costume, though there would seem to have been some deeper representation possible in many cases. It seems that these were not items to be used in warfare, as noted.

The gorget has always been an interesting item of vestigial armour, which of course is worn not as an element of protection but symbol or rank or certain ceremonial application. As noted, these were worn by British officers in the 18th century and I believe were probably adopted by the American Indians not only for apparant value as elements of rank, but possibly the close similarity to the crescent which was important in much tribal symbology.
It would be interesting at some point to learn more on the history of the gorget, I recently encountered a guy who is working on his doctoral thesis on them.

From other reading I have found that apparantly the steel breastplates were not particularly of interest to tribal warriors, and that in colonial America, one cuirass which was left among materials in one abandoned post, was found several years later still sitting and rusted through. The Indians had apparantly taken much else, but left this as unimportant or useful.
There is a much later account, though I cannot locate the exact reference, of a warrior who was called 'iron shirt' for his apparant deflection of bullets. It was later discovered he indeed was wearing all or part of an old Spanish breastplate under his clothing.

Returning to the outlaw faction in the wild west, there was apparantly a gunfighter (actually more of an assassin) who was called 'deacon Jim' for the long black frock coat he wore, attacking at night. Underneath he wore a steel plate over his chest. His time period seems to have been the turn of the century in Oklahoma (he was hanged Apr. 19,1909).
The first records for bullet proof vests officially, U.S. Patent and Trademark office, were from 1919, and the first documented demonstration of such a vest was with the metropolitan police in Washington in 1931.

From most of what I have read on the old unrifled guns and muskets, the accuracy was so questionable in most cases that bulletproof armor was probably not considered essential (myself I would want one...just in case!). I have understood the whole purpose of volley firing was essentially to be sure of hitting something, though that is certainly more perception than fact.
Obviously, close quarters fighting and melee would tighten the range of accuracy considerably, and strengthen the case for such protection.

I really do appreciate everyone joining in on this, and hope we can continue looking into other examples and instances. Briefly returning to the more magical and apotropaic perspective, I recall in research on the 'running wolf' that the purpose of so called 'Passau art' or talismanic markings on blades and amulets worn by soldiers, was to protect them in battle, especially from bullets.

All best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 23rd June 2009, 02:23 PM

Thanks again everybody! Great run!!

BTW, while helping my daughter move this week, moved some of my son in laws gear from his time in Iraq.....that kevlar vest is heavy!!!

ausjulius · 24th June 2009, 01:31 AM

"From other reading I have found that apparantly the steel breastplates were not particularly of interest to tribal warriors, and that in colonial America, one cuirass which was left among materials in one abandoned post, was found several years later still sitting and rusted through. The Indians had apparantly taken much else, but left this as unimportant or useful."

damn those indians must have been as dumb and door stops or that anicdote is probably not true..

i cannot see any primative people leaving a sheet of metal so valued to the in a thin state sitting on the ground.. unless for some supersticious reasons...

as to the armor.... i guess in a western setting in recent times i cant think of anything. i know till very recent times.. 1890s.. iin parts of mongolia and tibet silk was used under armor to stop bullets and arrows.. and worked rather well..
and to armor.. i understand several maori chiefs used armor and european swords..
one chief after visiting england was giver a suit of armor from the king and sword. and apon return to new zealand used it to good effect.. would have been 1820s or before.. being imprevious to bullets and dressed in a finely made renaissance suit or armor with matching sword used this as his wounder weapon to subdue the surrounding tribes with ease..
i do seem to recall padded steel breast plates were offered for slae in the 19th century and were used by mail couriers and armed guards transporting money and gold..

Jim McDougall · 24th June 2009, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ausjulius

"From other reading I have found that apparantly the steel breastplates were not particularly of interest to tribal warriors, and that in colonial America, one cuirass which was left among materials in one abandoned post, was found several years later still sitting and rusted through. The Indians had apparantly taken much else, but left this as unimportant or useful."

damn those indians must have been as dumb and door stops or that anicdote is probably not true..

i cannot see any primative people leaving a sheet of metal so valued to the in a thin state sitting on the ground.. unless for some supersticious reasons...

as to the armor.... i guess in a western setting in recent times i cant think of anything. i know till very recent times.. 1890s.. iin parts of mongolia and tibet silk was used under armor to stop bullets and arrows.. and worked rather well..
and to armor.. i understand several maori chiefs used armor and european swords..
one chief after visiting england was giver a suit of armor from the king and sword. and apon return to new zealand used it to good effect.. would have been 1820s or before.. being imprevious to bullets and dressed in a finely made renaissance suit or armor with matching sword used this as his wounder weapon to subdue the surrounding tribes with ease..
i do seem to recall padded steel breast plates were offered for slae in the 19th century and were used by mail couriers and armed guards transporting money and gold..

Good stuff Ausjulius! Thank you for posting.
Actually I think you hit it pretty soundly with the American Indian warriors, there was indeed a great deal of superstition...but these warriors were brilliant...often held to be among the worlds finest light cavalry.
In many campaigns during the Indian Wars certain chiefs were commended by American officers for the exemplary way they carried out thier warfare.

I believe the Maoris, much as the Moros, were inclined to use chain mail and indeed probably had occasion to use European weapons.

I hadnt heard of the padded breast plates for armed guards and couriers in the 19th century. Do you have more details?

Thank you again for posting and for the great observations!
All the best,
Jim

ausjulius · 25th June 2009, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I believe the Maoris, much as the Moros, were inclined to use chain mail and indeed probably had occasion to use European weapons.

I hadnt heard of the padded breast plates for armed guards and couriers in the 19th century. Do you have more details?

Thank you again for posting and for the great observations!
All the best,
Jim

hi jim.. yes.. honestly the desire for iron among the american natives and their value of it.. i couldnt see a breastplate being discarded unless they had leaft it for some great fear or a superstitious kind..

i think the tlingit and hada and other peoples along the pacific coast did make mail from metal washers and coins. and also wooden and shell armor but i think ti was more to deflect their own weapons, darts and arrows and not realy related to protection from bullets. although from what i understand these people had common use of firearms since the 1770s as the main weapon..

as the maoris using chain mail.. i have never heard of this..
it would be interesting to see something about that.

as to the metal plates for armor guards in the 19th century .. i seem to recall seeing several thins.. but i cant remember where. i i think one might have been an addvertisment.. for a padded steel plate.. i seem to recall pinkerton or wells fargo.. or others may have used these......
i guess they were porably the same as the metal breast plates sold during the civil war..
i do recall seeing some place somebody may have made and sold chain mail shirts or some such crazy think in the u.s. in the 19th century also..

.

Jim McDougall · 25th June 2009, 05:30 PM

Hi Ausjulius,
I do believe you are right on the American Indian tribes of the Northwest fashioning armour of wood and material using metal attachments, and as you note, am not aware of intended deflection of bullets. The advent of iron came late to these regions as far as locally produced metalwork, but they did use copper in considerable degree. While they could produce copper items, I believe they obtained a great deal of copper from trade, as well as from sheathing on wrecked ships that were lost along the coast in those endeavors.

On the note on Maoris use of chain mail, I will have to check further as I do not recall exactly where that reference was or if perhaps I may have inadvertantly misincluded that along with Moros. There is of course always the possibiity of singular cases from trade or European contact, but we of course are looking for significant use.

I found the name of the American Indian chief who was apparantly called 'Iron Shirt'. He was I believe a Tonkawa (?) in 1850's Texas, Chief Pohibit Quasha, and apparantly had an old Spanish breastplate. It seems that, at least in various references it has been noted that the tribes were at least in some degree intrigued by the various implements of the White Men, and that these objects would have been kept as kind of trophies whether used or not. The interest afforded a long held old Spanish morion seen in the movie "Dances with Wolves" (which was in my perception pretty well researched) I think reflects such possibilities.

It is known that while the Indian warriors did not use swords in combat, at least not in incidence well known, and that they did acquire them as trophies. These were held in high esteem and seem to have become elements of ceremonial regalia.

It would seem that there was a great deal of invention and innovation active in the Wild West, and I enjoy watching the television documentary series "Wild West Tech" in which they review many elements of weapons and various implements used in those times. The records of the U.S. Patent office would probably reveal quite a few pretty humorous 'inventions' proposed in these times, though many were remarkably sensible, even though obviously quite anachronistic. I would guess by then the patent on chain mail from the Middle Ages would have expired

All best regards,
Jim

.[/QUOTE]

23rd June 2009, 02:23 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,285	Thanks again everybody! Great run!! BTW, while helping my daughter move this week, moved some of my son in laws gear from his time in Iraq.....that kevlar vest is heavy!!! Last edited by Jim McDougall; 23rd June 2009 at 05:51 PM.

20th June 2009, 04:21 AM	#1
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	If the bone breastplates of past centuries were like the ones today (and I'm not aware that they are constructed any different except for those horrid plastic "bone" beads) then they weren't something I'd go in to battle wearing for protection. The shape of the bead- which tapers from the center in both directions- and the rather loose construction would make it easy for an arrow, lance, saber, knife etc to slip through. It might work against vertical/ diagonal cuts pretty well I suppose, but those glass beads might shatter. Likewise, while gorgets were and are still pretty popular (this time of year they're pretty commonly seen around here), I think even back in the 18th century they were more decorative than functional for most tribes. Some of the California and NW Coast tribes had wooden armor made from rods, as well as leather armor. On the Northern Plains in the 18th Century there were war shirts made with multiple layers of hide with sand mixed with glue between each layer. These shirts dropped out of use as guns became more common. There were also occassional mail shirts that turned up on Plains.

20th June 2009, 06:43 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,285	Its great to see you in on this Aiontay, and of course your perspective on these hairpipe breastplates is very well placed. Great information on the hide layered with sand between layers, which I had never heard of, despite being aware of leather used as protection against arrows. In looking further into more on the hairpipe regalia, which appears to have originated in about first quarter 19th century with Comanche's (though there are undoubtedly, as always ,varying opinions), these seem to have spread widely among southern Plains tribes, certainly farther with thier movements. There is a pretty interesting account on these by John C. Ewers in "Hair Pipes in Plains Indian Adornment: A Study in Indian and White Ingenuity", Anthropological Papers #50, Bureau of American Ethnology, Bulletin 164, Smithsonian reprint (from 1957), 1996. pp.29-85. Basically it seems that the breastplates, much as the multi-row chokers, were essentially regalia and decorative costume, though there would seem to have been some deeper representation possible in many cases. It seems that these were not items to be used in warfare, as noted. The gorget has always been an interesting item of vestigial armour, which of course is worn not as an element of protection but symbol or rank or certain ceremonial application. As noted, these were worn by British officers in the 18th century and I believe were probably adopted by the American Indians not only for apparant value as elements of rank, but possibly the close similarity to the crescent which was important in much tribal symbology. It would be interesting at some point to learn more on the history of the gorget, I recently encountered a guy who is working on his doctoral thesis on them. From other reading I have found that apparantly the steel breastplates were not particularly of interest to tribal warriors, and that in colonial America, one cuirass which was left among materials in one abandoned post, was found several years later still sitting and rusted through. The Indians had apparantly taken much else, but left this as unimportant or useful. There is a much later account, though I cannot locate the exact reference, of a warrior who was called 'iron shirt' for his apparant deflection of bullets. It was later discovered he indeed was wearing all or part of an old Spanish breastplate under his clothing. Returning to the outlaw faction in the wild west, there was apparantly a gunfighter (actually more of an assassin) who was called 'deacon Jim' for the long black frock coat he wore, attacking at night. Underneath he wore a steel plate over his chest. His time period seems to have been the turn of the century in Oklahoma (he was hanged Apr. 19,1909). The first records for bullet proof vests officially, U.S. Patent and Trademark office, were from 1919, and the first documented demonstration of such a vest was with the metropolitan police in Washington in 1931. From most of what I have read on the old unrifled guns and muskets, the accuracy was so questionable in most cases that bulletproof armor was probably not considered essential (myself I would want one...just in case!). I have understood the whole purpose of volley firing was essentially to be sure of hitting something, though that is certainly more perception than fact. Obviously, close quarters fighting and melee would tighten the range of accuracy considerably, and strengthen the case for such protection. I really do appreciate everyone joining in on this, and hope we can continue looking into other examples and instances. Briefly returning to the more magical and apotropaic perspective, I recall in research on the 'running wolf' that the purpose of so called 'Passau art' or talismanic markings on blades and amulets worn by soldiers, was to protect them in battle, especially from bullets. All best regards, Jim

24th June 2009, 01:31 AM	#4
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 446	"From other reading I have found that apparantly the steel breastplates were not particularly of interest to tribal warriors, and that in colonial America, one cuirass which was left among materials in one abandoned post, was found several years later still sitting and rusted through. The Indians had apparantly taken much else, but left this as unimportant or useful." damn those indians must have been as dumb and door stops or that anicdote is probably not true.. i cannot see any primative people leaving a sheet of metal so valued to the in a thin state sitting on the ground.. unless for some supersticious reasons... as to the armor.... i guess in a western setting in recent times i cant think of anything. i know till very recent times.. 1890s.. iin parts of mongolia and tibet silk was used under armor to stop bullets and arrows.. and worked rather well.. and to armor.. i understand several maori chiefs used armor and european swords.. one chief after visiting england was giver a suit of armor from the king and sword. and apon return to new zealand used it to good effect.. would have been 1820s or before.. being imprevious to bullets and dressed in a finely made renaissance suit or armor with matching sword used this as his wounder weapon to subdue the surrounding tribes with ease.. i do seem to recall padded steel breast plates were offered for slae in the 19th century and were used by mail couriers and armed guards transporting money and gold..

25th June 2009, 05:30 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,285	Hi Ausjulius, I do believe you are right on the American Indian tribes of the Northwest fashioning armour of wood and material using metal attachments, and as you note, am not aware of intended deflection of bullets. The advent of iron came late to these regions as far as locally produced metalwork, but they did use copper in considerable degree. While they could produce copper items, I believe they obtained a great deal of copper from trade, as well as from sheathing on wrecked ships that were lost along the coast in those endeavors. On the note on Maoris use of chain mail, I will have to check further as I do not recall exactly where that reference was or if perhaps I may have inadvertantly misincluded that along with Moros. There is of course always the possibiity of singular cases from trade or European contact, but we of course are looking for significant use. I found the name of the American Indian chief who was apparantly called 'Iron Shirt'. He was I believe a Tonkawa (?) in 1850's Texas, Chief Pohibit Quasha, and apparantly had an old Spanish breastplate. It seems that, at least in various references it has been noted that the tribes were at least in some degree intrigued by the various implements of the White Men, and that these objects would have been kept as kind of trophies whether used or not. The interest afforded a long held old Spanish morion seen in the movie "Dances with Wolves" (which was in my perception pretty well researched) I think reflects such possibilities. It is known that while the Indian warriors did not use swords in combat, at least not in incidence well known, and that they did acquire them as trophies. These were held in high esteem and seem to have become elements of ceremonial regalia. It would seem that there was a great deal of invention and innovation active in the Wild West, and I enjoy watching the television documentary series "Wild West Tech" in which they review many elements of weapons and various implements used in those times. The records of the U.S. Patent office would probably reveal quite a few pretty humorous 'inventions' proposed in these times, though many were remarkably sensible, even though obviously quite anachronistic. I would guess by then the patent on chain mail from the Middle Ages would have expired All best regards, Jim .[/QUOTE]