Armour in the Wild West

kronckew · 19th June 2009, 03:31 PM

while they turned out to be not very bullet proof, the mahdi's army wore armour at the battle of omdurman in 1898, where winston churchill led a charge of the 21st lancers against them. some references to horses of the mahdi's forces wearing quilted armour, and of the chain mail shattering under british sabre blows due it's fragility due to it's age and condition.
the lancers did not wear armour and some, including churchill used their pistols more than lance & sabre. at least till they ran out of ammo.

Jim McDougall · 19th June 2009, 05:35 PM

Marc, wonderful suggestion to a reference written by one of arms and armour's true sages! Bashford Dean. I had heard of body armour's use in some degree in WWI, and these times were of considerable innovation, so the discussion on these topics must be excellent by Mr. Dean. I hope I will be able to find a copy at some point to review. Thank you for adding this!

Fernando, excellent movie, and I forgot that Mick Jagger had been in this. I caught a glimpse of only part of it....its a must see, thank you for the reminder, and I'll get it in my list of movies to watch. Always loved the 'Stones' music and interesting that Jagger (and Bowie) stand as pretty good actors as well. Thanks very much for the reminder and for posting the great photos of this armour! Reminds me a bit of the Tin Man in "Wizard of Oz"

Kronckew, thank you for the notes on the Mahdists, and especially the notes on the chain mail breaking from condition, I have seen references noting the often questionable servicability of chain mail when not properly maintained, and though Arkell has written on the manufacture of chain mail in the Sudan, it must have been expensive for the rank and file to acquire.

I recall having read about the Mahdists actually tightly binding thier bodies with tightly wound strips of cloth so as to give the the physical integrity to continue fighting as long as possible despite repeated bullet wounds. It seems that the revolver was greatly in demand to pump as many bullets as possible into these charging warriors, perhaps with that in mind.

Thanks again guys!!
All the best,
Jim

aiontay · 20th June 2009, 04:21 AM

If the bone breastplates of past centuries were like the ones today (and I'm not aware that they are constructed any different except for those horrid plastic "bone" beads) then they weren't something I'd go in to battle wearing for protection. The shape of the bead- which tapers from the center in both directions- and the rather loose construction would make it easy for an arrow, lance, saber, knife etc to slip through. It might work against vertical/ diagonal cuts pretty well I suppose, but those glass beads might shatter. Likewise, while gorgets were and are still pretty popular (this time of year they're pretty commonly seen around here), I think even back in the 18th century they were more decorative than functional for most tribes.

Some of the California and NW Coast tribes had wooden armor made from rods, as well as leather armor. On the Northern Plains in the 18th Century there were war shirts made with multiple layers of hide with sand mixed with glue between each layer. These shirts dropped out of use as guns became more common. There were also occassional mail shirts that turned up on Plains.

Jim McDougall · 20th June 2009, 06:43 PM

Its great to see you in on this Aiontay, and of course your perspective on these hairpipe breastplates is very well placed. Great information on the hide layered with sand between layers, which I had never heard of, despite being aware of leather used as protection against arrows.

In looking further into more on the hairpipe regalia, which appears to have originated in about first quarter 19th century with Comanche's (though there are undoubtedly, as always ,varying opinions), these seem to have spread widely among southern Plains tribes, certainly farther with thier movements.

There is a pretty interesting account on these by John C. Ewers in
"Hair Pipes in Plains Indian Adornment: A Study in Indian and White Ingenuity", Anthropological Papers #50, Bureau of American Ethnology, Bulletin 164, Smithsonian reprint (from 1957), 1996. pp.29-85.

Basically it seems that the breastplates, much as the multi-row chokers, were essentially regalia and decorative costume, though there would seem to have been some deeper representation possible in many cases. It seems that these were not items to be used in warfare, as noted.

The gorget has always been an interesting item of vestigial armour, which of course is worn not as an element of protection but symbol or rank or certain ceremonial application. As noted, these were worn by British officers in the 18th century and I believe were probably adopted by the American Indians not only for apparant value as elements of rank, but possibly the close similarity to the crescent which was important in much tribal symbology.
It would be interesting at some point to learn more on the history of the gorget, I recently encountered a guy who is working on his doctoral thesis on them.

From other reading I have found that apparantly the steel breastplates were not particularly of interest to tribal warriors, and that in colonial America, one cuirass which was left among materials in one abandoned post, was found several years later still sitting and rusted through. The Indians had apparantly taken much else, but left this as unimportant or useful.
There is a much later account, though I cannot locate the exact reference, of a warrior who was called 'iron shirt' for his apparant deflection of bullets. It was later discovered he indeed was wearing all or part of an old Spanish breastplate under his clothing.

Returning to the outlaw faction in the wild west, there was apparantly a gunfighter (actually more of an assassin) who was called 'deacon Jim' for the long black frock coat he wore, attacking at night. Underneath he wore a steel plate over his chest. His time period seems to have been the turn of the century in Oklahoma (he was hanged Apr. 19,1909).
The first records for bullet proof vests officially, U.S. Patent and Trademark office, were from 1919, and the first documented demonstration of such a vest was with the metropolitan police in Washington in 1931.

From most of what I have read on the old unrifled guns and muskets, the accuracy was so questionable in most cases that bulletproof armor was probably not considered essential (myself I would want one...just in case!). I have understood the whole purpose of volley firing was essentially to be sure of hitting something, though that is certainly more perception than fact.
Obviously, close quarters fighting and melee would tighten the range of accuracy considerably, and strengthen the case for such protection.

I really do appreciate everyone joining in on this, and hope we can continue looking into other examples and instances. Briefly returning to the more magical and apotropaic perspective, I recall in research on the 'running wolf' that the purpose of so called 'Passau art' or talismanic markings on blades and amulets worn by soldiers, was to protect them in battle, especially from bullets.

All best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 23rd June 2009, 02:23 PM

Thanks again everybody! Great run!!

BTW, while helping my daughter move this week, moved some of my son in laws gear from his time in Iraq.....that kevlar vest is heavy!!!

ausjulius · 24th June 2009, 01:31 AM

"From other reading I have found that apparantly the steel breastplates were not particularly of interest to tribal warriors, and that in colonial America, one cuirass which was left among materials in one abandoned post, was found several years later still sitting and rusted through. The Indians had apparantly taken much else, but left this as unimportant or useful."

damn those indians must have been as dumb and door stops or that anicdote is probably not true..

i cannot see any primative people leaving a sheet of metal so valued to the in a thin state sitting on the ground.. unless for some supersticious reasons...

as to the armor.... i guess in a western setting in recent times i cant think of anything. i know till very recent times.. 1890s.. iin parts of mongolia and tibet silk was used under armor to stop bullets and arrows.. and worked rather well..
and to armor.. i understand several maori chiefs used armor and european swords..
one chief after visiting england was giver a suit of armor from the king and sword. and apon return to new zealand used it to good effect.. would have been 1820s or before.. being imprevious to bullets and dressed in a finely made renaissance suit or armor with matching sword used this as his wounder weapon to subdue the surrounding tribes with ease..
i do seem to recall padded steel breast plates were offered for slae in the 19th century and were used by mail couriers and armed guards transporting money and gold..

Jim McDougall · 24th June 2009, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ausjulius

"From other reading I have found that apparantly the steel breastplates were not particularly of interest to tribal warriors, and that in colonial America, one cuirass which was left among materials in one abandoned post, was found several years later still sitting and rusted through. The Indians had apparantly taken much else, but left this as unimportant or useful."

damn those indians must have been as dumb and door stops or that anicdote is probably not true..

i cannot see any primative people leaving a sheet of metal so valued to the in a thin state sitting on the ground.. unless for some supersticious reasons...

as to the armor.... i guess in a western setting in recent times i cant think of anything. i know till very recent times.. 1890s.. iin parts of mongolia and tibet silk was used under armor to stop bullets and arrows.. and worked rather well..
and to armor.. i understand several maori chiefs used armor and european swords..
one chief after visiting england was giver a suit of armor from the king and sword. and apon return to new zealand used it to good effect.. would have been 1820s or before.. being imprevious to bullets and dressed in a finely made renaissance suit or armor with matching sword used this as his wounder weapon to subdue the surrounding tribes with ease..
i do seem to recall padded steel breast plates were offered for slae in the 19th century and were used by mail couriers and armed guards transporting money and gold..

Good stuff Ausjulius! Thank you for posting.
Actually I think you hit it pretty soundly with the American Indian warriors, there was indeed a great deal of superstition...but these warriors were brilliant...often held to be among the worlds finest light cavalry.
In many campaigns during the Indian Wars certain chiefs were commended by American officers for the exemplary way they carried out thier warfare.

I believe the Maoris, much as the Moros, were inclined to use chain mail and indeed probably had occasion to use European weapons.

I hadnt heard of the padded breast plates for armed guards and couriers in the 19th century. Do you have more details?

Thank you again for posting and for the great observations!
All the best,
Jim

19th June 2009, 03:31 PM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	while they turned out to be not very bullet proof, the mahdi's army wore armour at the battle of omdurman in 1898, where winston churchill led a charge of the 21st lancers against them. some references to horses of the mahdi's forces wearing quilted armour, and of the chain mail shattering under british sabre blows due it's fragility due to it's age and condition. the lancers did not wear armour and some, including churchill used their pistols more than lance & sabre. at least till they ran out of ammo.

19th June 2009, 05:35 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Marc, wonderful suggestion to a reference written by one of arms and armour's true sages! Bashford Dean. I had heard of body armour's use in some degree in WWI, and these times were of considerable innovation, so the discussion on these topics must be excellent by Mr. Dean. I hope I will be able to find a copy at some point to review. Thank you for adding this! Fernando, excellent movie, and I forgot that Mick Jagger had been in this. I caught a glimpse of only part of it....its a must see, thank you for the reminder, and I'll get it in my list of movies to watch. Always loved the 'Stones' music and interesting that Jagger (and Bowie) stand as pretty good actors as well. Thanks very much for the reminder and for posting the great photos of this armour! Reminds me a bit of the Tin Man in "Wizard of Oz" Kronckew, thank you for the notes on the Mahdists, and especially the notes on the chain mail breaking from condition, I have seen references noting the often questionable servicability of chain mail when not properly maintained, and though Arkell has written on the manufacture of chain mail in the Sudan, it must have been expensive for the rank and file to acquire. I recall having read about the Mahdists actually tightly binding thier bodies with tightly wound strips of cloth so as to give the the physical integrity to continue fighting as long as possible despite repeated bullet wounds. It seems that the revolver was greatly in demand to pump as many bullets as possible into these charging warriors, perhaps with that in mind. Thanks again guys!! All the best, Jim

20th June 2009, 04:21 AM	#3
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	If the bone breastplates of past centuries were like the ones today (and I'm not aware that they are constructed any different except for those horrid plastic "bone" beads) then they weren't something I'd go in to battle wearing for protection. The shape of the bead- which tapers from the center in both directions- and the rather loose construction would make it easy for an arrow, lance, saber, knife etc to slip through. It might work against vertical/ diagonal cuts pretty well I suppose, but those glass beads might shatter. Likewise, while gorgets were and are still pretty popular (this time of year they're pretty commonly seen around here), I think even back in the 18th century they were more decorative than functional for most tribes. Some of the California and NW Coast tribes had wooden armor made from rods, as well as leather armor. On the Northern Plains in the 18th Century there were war shirts made with multiple layers of hide with sand mixed with glue between each layer. These shirts dropped out of use as guns became more common. There were also occassional mail shirts that turned up on Plains.

20th June 2009, 06:43 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Its great to see you in on this Aiontay, and of course your perspective on these hairpipe breastplates is very well placed. Great information on the hide layered with sand between layers, which I had never heard of, despite being aware of leather used as protection against arrows. In looking further into more on the hairpipe regalia, which appears to have originated in about first quarter 19th century with Comanche's (though there are undoubtedly, as always ,varying opinions), these seem to have spread widely among southern Plains tribes, certainly farther with thier movements. There is a pretty interesting account on these by John C. Ewers in "Hair Pipes in Plains Indian Adornment: A Study in Indian and White Ingenuity", Anthropological Papers #50, Bureau of American Ethnology, Bulletin 164, Smithsonian reprint (from 1957), 1996. pp.29-85. Basically it seems that the breastplates, much as the multi-row chokers, were essentially regalia and decorative costume, though there would seem to have been some deeper representation possible in many cases. It seems that these were not items to be used in warfare, as noted. The gorget has always been an interesting item of vestigial armour, which of course is worn not as an element of protection but symbol or rank or certain ceremonial application. As noted, these were worn by British officers in the 18th century and I believe were probably adopted by the American Indians not only for apparant value as elements of rank, but possibly the close similarity to the crescent which was important in much tribal symbology. It would be interesting at some point to learn more on the history of the gorget, I recently encountered a guy who is working on his doctoral thesis on them. From other reading I have found that apparantly the steel breastplates were not particularly of interest to tribal warriors, and that in colonial America, one cuirass which was left among materials in one abandoned post, was found several years later still sitting and rusted through. The Indians had apparantly taken much else, but left this as unimportant or useful. There is a much later account, though I cannot locate the exact reference, of a warrior who was called 'iron shirt' for his apparant deflection of bullets. It was later discovered he indeed was wearing all or part of an old Spanish breastplate under his clothing. Returning to the outlaw faction in the wild west, there was apparantly a gunfighter (actually more of an assassin) who was called 'deacon Jim' for the long black frock coat he wore, attacking at night. Underneath he wore a steel plate over his chest. His time period seems to have been the turn of the century in Oklahoma (he was hanged Apr. 19,1909). The first records for bullet proof vests officially, U.S. Patent and Trademark office, were from 1919, and the first documented demonstration of such a vest was with the metropolitan police in Washington in 1931. From most of what I have read on the old unrifled guns and muskets, the accuracy was so questionable in most cases that bulletproof armor was probably not considered essential (myself I would want one...just in case!). I have understood the whole purpose of volley firing was essentially to be sure of hitting something, though that is certainly more perception than fact. Obviously, close quarters fighting and melee would tighten the range of accuracy considerably, and strengthen the case for such protection. I really do appreciate everyone joining in on this, and hope we can continue looking into other examples and instances. Briefly returning to the more magical and apotropaic perspective, I recall in research on the 'running wolf' that the purpose of so called 'Passau art' or talismanic markings on blades and amulets worn by soldiers, was to protect them in battle, especially from bullets. All best regards, Jim

23rd June 2009, 02:23 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Thanks again everybody! Great run!! BTW, while helping my daughter move this week, moved some of my son in laws gear from his time in Iraq.....that kevlar vest is heavy!!! Last edited by Jim McDougall; 23rd June 2009 at 05:51 PM.

24th June 2009, 01:31 AM	#6
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 444	"From other reading I have found that apparantly the steel breastplates were not particularly of interest to tribal warriors, and that in colonial America, one cuirass which was left among materials in one abandoned post, was found several years later still sitting and rusted through. The Indians had apparantly taken much else, but left this as unimportant or useful." damn those indians must have been as dumb and door stops or that anicdote is probably not true.. i cannot see any primative people leaving a sheet of metal so valued to the in a thin state sitting on the ground.. unless for some supersticious reasons... as to the armor.... i guess in a western setting in recent times i cant think of anything. i know till very recent times.. 1890s.. iin parts of mongolia and tibet silk was used under armor to stop bullets and arrows.. and worked rather well.. and to armor.. i understand several maori chiefs used armor and european swords.. one chief after visiting england was giver a suit of armor from the king and sword. and apon return to new zealand used it to good effect.. would have been 1820s or before.. being imprevious to bullets and dressed in a finely made renaissance suit or armor with matching sword used this as his wounder weapon to subdue the surrounding tribes with ease.. i do seem to recall padded steel breast plates were offered for slae in the 19th century and were used by mail couriers and armed guards transporting money and gold..