Swords at the Little Big Horn (Part II)

[tom hyle]

Of course, without seeing the sword, I can only point out that Mexico is closer, geographically, and often undercreditted for its role in US material culture. Also, that straight double edged swords that can fairly be described as oversized seem more common out of Mexico to a later date than out of Europe. The German-ness of the blade can be accepted well enough, although, of course, the Solingen marks have been famously counterfeited for a long time.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Andrew,
"Son of the Morning Star" (Evan S. Connell, 1984, p.111) describes Custer's fight with a Confederate officer during the Civil War. Apparantly he killed the officer and took his "unusual double edged sword-its blade engraved in Spanish 'no me saques sin razon- no me envaines sin honor'. " It is noted that the eminent Custer historian Lawrence Frost examined the sword with a jewelers loop, presuming this to be a Toledo blade and looking for markings. He found instead Solingen marking in nearly obliterated letters near the hilt.
It says that the blade was 3" longer than the standard cavalry saber (which was 36" long) suggesting this would have had to be 39" long!!
The author notes that "...he liked swords and apparantly collected them with the innocent pleasure of those who collect cognac bottles and postage stamps.One of these weapons which Mr. Frost acquired , has an unusually short blade with an ivory channeled grip, the pommel consisting of a gold plated lions head with ruby like eyes. It probably was made in England and belonged to one of his ancestors.Then there is a militia officers sword with a mother of pearl grip and a brass pommel in the shape of a knights helmet. It dates from mid 19th c. and was manufactured in Chicopee, Mass. but that is all that Mr. Frost could find out".

It seems I recall the note on his sword collection and did see someplace the comment on thirty swords, but need to dig into the files!! It seems that they were once in the holdings of museum or something to do with this Mr. Frost.

The double edged sword with the familiar 'Spanish' motto were very common in colonial Mexico, and these were typically Spanish cavalry blades for M1769 swords. The blades themselves were shipped to Mexico unmounted and often mounted in sabre hilts of the period. The first one I ever encountered seemed very odd in having a broadsword blade in a sabre hilt, but apparantly these were mounted this way in Mexico in the 1820's and 1830's. The blade owned by the Confederate officer may well have been captured in the Mexican-American War 1846 . The Confederate forces also used many foreign swords during the Civil War, particularly British, but often German and undoubtedly even Mexican weapons. Straight cavalry blades of the 18th century often reached huge length as the dragoons often rode on huge draught horses, and required extra length blades. I once owned a M1788 British dragoon sword with a 40" blade..it was a monster!!
As has been noted, the 'Spanish' motto' appeared on many blades mounted worldwide as these were trade blades.

It seems quite familiar about the Roby sabre as well, I'll keep looking.

Best regards,
Jim

[tom hyle]

The attitude toward Mexico on the part of US in the 18th and 19th was considerably different than currently, as well, with Mexico being more Europeanized from an earlier date, thus being earlier more "civilized" than USA (much of both had actually been civilized--city-based--long before White Eyes came along, of course) and being an alternative (to England) source of manufactured goods; importing cutlery from Mexico is mentioned in old accounts and in folklore. Additionally, extensive areas of what are now (or during the US civil war) USA were at one time (not that long before said war), either politically or culturally Mexican/Spanish colonial. Of course one notices this in the enormous country of Texas, but it was also pretty prominant in Colorado, for instance. It is entirely possible the Confederate officer was from an area recently under Mexican rule, or was himself of Mexican descent.

[Jeff D]

How frustrating is this! I have a number of Custer books but cannot access them. Unfortunately I read them long before meeting this forum so I did not make mental notes of where the facts came from.

Tom, the contribution of Mexico to American culture is very important, but, perhaps we are getting a little ahead of ourselves. Lets see if the sword can be tracted down. For point of fact I will post a recent aquisition (not arrived yet), it is highly unlikely that its bearer was of Mexican descent. This motto as you know was used on many British swords which the confederates identified with.

All the Best.
Jeff

[George Armstrong Custer]

Gentlemen:
Firstly may I thank you all for your welcoming and interested response to an enquiry from a new member; it's much appreciated.

Andrew, many thanks for reposting my original message to this new forum location.

Tom, I have searched high and low on the net for an image of this weapon. There ought to be one available, as the sword was in the Smithsonian Institute collection. Apparently it is not now, and I cannot account for its disappearance from that august collection. However, in Lawrence A. Frost's book The Custer Album, there is a good b/w photograph of the unsheathed sword and its scabbard on p. 178. Jim McDougal's reference to the late Lawrence Frost's close examination of this blade in Son of the Morning Star is supported in its conclusions by the caption to this photo in Frost's own book, which declares it to be a German blade. Jim's quotes from the Son of the Morning Star book as to the sabre's relatively large dimensions and heft are reflected in the photo of it in Frost's book. [BTW, the late Dr Lawrence A. Frost was a podiatrist who happened to grow up in Custer's boyhood hometown of Monroe [note: although the Custers moved to Monroe, the future General was born at New Rumley, Ohio]. He became one of the most respected chroniclers of Custer's life and times, with several relevant publications to his name. Frost was also the longtime curator of the Custer room of the Monroe County, Michigan, museum. He lived across the street from members of the Custer family at one point, and before they left town prior to WWII their going away present to Frost was a pair of Custer's cavalry boots. Over the years Frost acquired many more Custer artefacts and manuscripts; after his death, many of these appeared in the Butterfield auction of 1996 referred to earlier.

Jeff, I have been meaning to place an order for the Thillmann volume with our local bookstore for some time now - it has had very good reviews. It correctly describes the Roby sabre from the Butterfield & Butterfield sale of April 4, 1995. I have a copy of the catalogue, as I bid (miserably unsuccessfully!) on the Custer sabre. It contains a good sized color photo of the unsheathed sabre and scabbard. The catalogue description is as follows:

Lot #6: General George A. Custer's Model 1860 Cavalry Saber. Having a 35 inch curved blade, ricasso marked U.S. 1864 A.G.M. The reverse C. Roby W. Chelmsford Mass. Length overall 43 1/4 inches. Condition: Guard and blade show minor wear, some flaking to leather grip, wire wrap loose. Metal scabbard with dark patina overall. See illustration.' Provenance: Acevedo Collection; Charles A. Custer Family Collection. Estimate $30,000/40,000.

It was later some little consolation to me to acquire a duplicate of Custer's Roby sabre, also dated 1864, inspector marked A.G.M. (for Alfred G. Manning), and in better condition than Custer's at auction in London, UK (although, of course, it will never have the aura of having once been wielded by the 'Boy General').

Although I couldn't find an image on the web of the captured confederate sabre from Custer's collection, here is an image of the presentation sword given to Custer at the end of the Civil War by officers of his staff. Specially commissioned and inscribed, it was manufactured by the prestigious company of Tiffany of New York.




I'd be interested to hear of any more information anyone may have relating to swords owned by Custer - and in particular any references to his M1860 Roby.

Ciao,
GAC

[Jim McDougall]

I checked p.178 of "The Custer Album" by Frost and viewed the photo of the Confederate sabre discussed, and this is most definitely one of the colonial Mexico blades. I reviewed text and illustrations concerning these blades in "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America :1700-1821" (S. Brinckerhoff & Pierce Chamberlain, Stackpole, 1972) and on p.73 it notes,"...the wide, double edged ,hexagonal blade with three fullers is probably the most common blade found throughout the Spanish colonies".
I have a Spanish colonial sabre with three bar hilt and one of these exact blades with three fullers, and the "Spanish motto". It is mounted exactly as shown in Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain p.88 (pl.163) which is captioned as "a Mexican dragoon sabre c.1820". The blade on my sword is 34 1/2" blade.
The blade in the book's example is hexagonal but lacks the three fullers as well as the 'motto' instead marked with Carlos III (Charles III).

In examining illustrations and examples of these swords, it seems those with triple fullers carry the 'motto' and hexagonal cross section, while those that are associated with regulation Spanish swords are hexagonal but do not have the motto. In Brinkerhoff & Chamberlain (op.cit. p.15) it is noted that c.1761 King Charles sent officers to Prussia to study tactics, formations and equipment.

Another example of similar hilt probably earlier, c.1800 is mounted with a hexagonal blade with central panel fullered in same dimensions as the triple fullers, with 'Toledo*Sagaum' inscribed. This is clearly a German product with misspelled Sahagum and familiar flourishes, seeming to be an earlier blade of c.1770's. I think that it seems quite plausible that during the contact with Germany in the 1760's that King Charles may have aligned a degree of production of German made blades in the favored hexagonal section already standard with the Spanish military swords. The central fullering is quite characteristic of German trade broadsword blades, in fact the most prominant supplier of 'kaskara' blades with similar fullering in the 19th c. was Solingen.

I have long suspected that these blades in Spanish colonial swords may well have been German, and the Custer example seems compelling evidence with the markings noted by Frost. Thus far I have not seen evidential German markings, only the 'motto' and the atypical fullers on hexagonal blades.

Concerning the magnificent Scottish baskethilt Jeff has posted, the large block letters with the motto intersected by dots or circles seems to be also characteristic of German made blades. The Scots very much favored German blades, in fact it is likely most blades on the baskethilts were of German manufacture. They were also very enamoured with Spain's reputation for fine swords, and Germany in clever marketing ploy created blades using names from Spains famed makers from early times. A baskethilt of c.1680 carries an earlier German blade with misspelled 'Sebastian' and the typical flourishes seen on German blades, while the makers stamp is Wirsberg mid 17th c.
Sebastian almost certainly refers to Spanish maker Sebastian (H) or (F) ernandez c.1650, but more research needed on that. The point is that Germans were using Spanish markings etc. on blades from 17th c. onward, probably even earlier.

I am familiar with fact that there were British supply lines to the Confederacy via various Caribbean ports, and would speculate that it would seem feasible that Confederate blockade runners may have also entered the Spanish colonial sphere via Cuba. Here it would seem quite possible that blades may have been obtained such as the one on the Confederate officers sabre.
There remains of course the possibility that the blade may have been a heirloom captured during the Mexican-American War 1846.

I do hope that this sword might be eventually found among the Smithsonian labyrinth as it is in my opinion one of Custers more important swords. The others seem as described rather casually collected, however the Roby sabre is no doubt an outstanding example by an important maker.

Best regards,
Jim

[Jeff D]

Once again I am blown away by Jim's knowledge. It is interesting that WBranner has just posted a blade similar to what you describe as the Custer captured blade. http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...threadid=51073 I have one of Frost's publications, but I don't think it is the "Custer Album" I guess I will have to wait until they come out of storage, to see the picture of it.


My basket hilt has a number of interesting features and I will post it on a separate thread when it arrives.

Thanks again All
Jeff

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by George Armstrong Custer

Andrew, many thanks for reposting my original message to this new forum location.

It was my pleasure, George. Welcome to the forum.

Incidentally, any relation?

[tom hyle]

A lot of the welds are pretty obvious on that basket; youse may enjoy checking them out. While we're discussing mis-spellings, any commentary on "Salingen"? "Me Fecit Salingen" is on a sword I have (four times at that); I recently saw a seller say that a similar mark on his sword was from expat(etc.) German smiths working in England in the 17th?

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Andrew,

Hi Jim!