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Lew · 5th June 2009, 05:31 AM

Archer

Inuits did have a supply of meteorite iron from a large meteorite they made spear points and small knives from it but they were crude pieces not the highly stylized daggers we see here. It would be very difficult to forge a large knife from just using iron meteorites. Its quite brittle and must be blended with other iron and steel to form a usuable billet in order to make a large dagger.

trenchwarfare · 5th June 2009, 05:47 AM

Not trying to hyjack this thread but... Thought I would re-submit this dagger, to a different audience. David, you were very helpful. I'm having trouble believing, that it is African, as stated by so many.

I can only post the link. Maybe someone else can bring up pictures. http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...orthwest+coast

Tim Simmons · 5th June 2009, 10:56 AM

Better pictures might help, ones that show the white substance more cearly. It still looks unusual to me.

archer · 5th June 2009, 04:30 PM

Well as quickly as I thought I might have found some good incite on these daggers. I find the authors discredited. link http://www.fenimoreartmuseum.org/fil...haw/search.htm This link shows other daggers and clicking the last one will bring up http://www.fenimoreartmuseum.org/fil...t1/e10554a.htm Note it discredits John Witthofts claims. Sorry, Tim, I removed most of the starchy substance with a toothpick awhile back. Here are some closeups. Sorry about bringing an oxcart into a discussion on Mercedes.

David · 5th June 2009, 08:02 PM

I don't think Archer's example is at all the same category of dagger that we are discussing here though it is interesting to see.
Your link to the discrediting of the author you cite doesn't lead to an article. Do you have another link? I am not sure what claims are discredited, but this is not the first time i have heard of meteorite as a source of iron for some of these daggers, the "Killer Whale" dagger in particular.

archer · 5th June 2009, 09:46 PM

Sorry in 1st link type in "dagger" click search. to see other daggers.
2nd link is the one (in history) that discusses stone working copper, etc.

Steve

Tim Simmons · 7th June 2009, 11:05 AM

Just to prick this topic a little- here is an extract from "Miskwabik- Metal of Ritual, Amelia M. Trevelyan, The University Press Of Kentucky" Which mentions the history of denial about Native American metalwork from the North East, all be it that the book is about copper. The general idea is that work was fashioned from "float copper" the copper was not just picked up in the top layer of soil but obtained from extensive mining. Much of the copper had to be extracted from a surounding matrix of stone and spoil by fire. Okay this is not stricktly smelting ore but shows an understanding of the concept. One has to assume that indeed a degree of smelting may have occured in this process. I see a similarity to Brass in sub-saharan Africa inspite of a great deal of evidence in both cases.

As to iron in the Pacific North West could it be a similar situation? very small scale ritual production? again as in the case for Brass in sub-saharan Africa, native production being replaced by more easy to come by trade iron. The maturity of artistic expression and forge work seen in PNW iron work makes me think of a strong tradition only to decline with contact and trade.

Just food for thought I am not a qualifide acedemic.

5th June 2009, 04:30 PM	#4
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Tlingit Well as quickly as I thought I might have found some good incite on these daggers. I find the authors discredited. link http://www.fenimoreartmuseum.org/fil...haw/search.htm This link shows other daggers and clicking the last one will bring up http://www.fenimoreartmuseum.org/fil...t1/e10554a.htm Note it discredits John Witthofts claims. Sorry, Tim, I removed most of the starchy substance with a toothpick awhile back. Here are some closeups. Sorry about bringing an oxcart into a discussion on Mercedes. Attached Images

5th June 2009, 09:46 PM	#6
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Links Sorry in 1st link type in "dagger" click search. to see other daggers. 2nd link is the one (in history) that discusses stone working copper, etc. Steve

7th June 2009, 11:05 AM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	Ritual use. Just to prick this topic a little- here is an extract from "Miskwabik- Metal of Ritual, Amelia M. Trevelyan, The University Press Of Kentucky" Which mentions the history of denial about Native American metalwork from the North East, all be it that the book is about copper. The general idea is that work was fashioned from "float copper" the copper was not just picked up in the top layer of soil but obtained from extensive mining. Much of the copper had to be extracted from a surounding matrix of stone and spoil by fire. Okay this is not stricktly smelting ore but shows an understanding of the concept. One has to assume that indeed a degree of smelting may have occured in this process. I see a similarity to Brass in sub-saharan Africa inspite of a great deal of evidence in both cases. As to iron in the Pacific North West could it be a similar situation? very small scale ritual production? again as in the case for Brass in sub-saharan Africa, native production being replaced by more easy to come by trade iron. The maturity of artistic expression and forge work seen in PNW iron work makes me think of a strong tradition only to decline with contact and trade. Just food for thought I am not a qualifide acedemic. Attached Images

5th June 2009, 05:31 AM	#1
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Archer Inuits did have a supply of meteorite iron from a large meteorite they made spear points and small knives from it but they were crude pieces not the highly stylized daggers we see here. It would be very difficult to forge a large knife from just using iron meteorites. Its quite brittle and must be blended with other iron and steel to form a usuable billet in order to make a large dagger.

5th June 2009, 05:47 AM	#2
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	Not trying to hyjack this thread but... Thought I would re-submit this dagger, to a different audience. David, you were very helpful. I'm having trouble believing, that it is African, as stated by so many. I can only post the link. Maybe someone else can bring up pictures. http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...orthwest+coast

5th June 2009, 10:56 AM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	Better pictures might help, ones that show the white substance more cearly. It still looks unusual to me.

5th June 2009, 08:02 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	I don't think Archer's example is at all the same category of dagger that we are discussing here though it is interesting to see. Your link to the discrediting of the author you cite doesn't lead to an article. Do you have another link? I am not sure what claims are discredited, but this is not the first time i have heard of meteorite as a source of iron for some of these daggers, the "Killer Whale" dagger in particular.