Another Sudanese knife !

Jim McDougall · 22nd May 2009, 09:35 PM

Outstanding Warren! Nice piece, and my hat is off to you for your interest in learning more on the markings!! Most encouraging, and hopefully there may be comments offering explanations on them.

Lew · 22nd May 2009, 10:45 PM

Warren

As for the age I would think 1925-40 but could be as early as 1900. The swimming fish (also a river/water symbol) on one side a the wavey line (river symbol) on the other side seems symbolic of the meeting of the Blue nile and White Nile at Khartoum and Omdurman. That is my theory.

Lew

Jim McDougall · 25th May 2009, 03:50 AM

Dom, thank you again for your expertise in the translation on this!! It really helps a lot to know the wording on these, while the symbols offer great field for speculation.

The symbol of the fish is one which does seem to appear on blades of daggers and knives in Sudanese regions well into the 20th century. As with considerable symbolism in the material culture of North Africa, one of the predominant themes are apotropaic and talismanic devices. In 16th c. Tunis, the fish was considered useful in combat against evil spirits. The fish as a talisman is noted prevalent in North Africa, especially in the south ("African Shores of the Meditteranean" C. Grant, L.Grant, 1912, p.477).

The wavy line adjacent to the fish seems to be reflective of symbolism and linear motif used in the pottery and ceramics of Neolithic period in these regions. The 'dotted wavy line' motif is well known in archaeological parlance and its presence here first recognized by A.J.Arkell (" Early Khartoum", London, 1949), as he referenced Mesolithic period in Sudan, with this motif carrying into the Neolithic period.
It is known that the use of these prehistoric motifs often prevail in modern symbolism in these North African cultures.

Often the geometric devices, such as the triangles may be considered embellishment, however it must be remembered that the 'fibula', the triangular device of Berber folk religion is found in motif on the flyssa blade, also an apotropaic against the evil eye.

A great reference for observing the use of symbolism in material culture, in this case jewellery, in North Africa, is "Africa Adorned" by Angela Fisher.
Outstanding perspective.

All best regards,
Jim

Gavin Nugent · 21st June 2009, 01:49 AM

I do wonder about the fish being present on the blade, with the references Jim has noted, it does have recording meaning within Africa.
Although poles apart, I do wonder, after digesting some of Elgood's Hindu arms and Ritual, page 135, that the fish may also have a fertility meaning in Africa too? Only a suggestion as Hindu's also note the fish as being evil alerting, similar to Africa too.

Gav

21st June 2009, 01:49 AM	#4
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	The Fish I do wonder about the fish being present on the blade, with the references Jim has noted, it does have recording meaning within Africa. Although poles apart, I do wonder, after digesting some of Elgood's Hindu arms and Ritual, page 135, that the fish may also have a fertility meaning in Africa too? Only a suggestion as Hindu's also note the fish as being evil alerting, similar to Africa too. Gav

22nd May 2009, 09:35 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Outstanding Warren! Nice piece, and my hat is off to you for your interest in learning more on the markings!! Most encouraging, and hopefully there may be comments offering explanations on them.

22nd May 2009, 10:45 PM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Warren As for the age I would think 1925-40 but could be as early as 1900. The swimming fish (also a river/water symbol) on one side a the wavey line (river symbol) on the other side seems symbolic of the meeting of the Blue nile and White Nile at Khartoum and Omdurman. That is my theory. Lew

25th May 2009, 03:50 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Dom, thank you again for your expertise in the translation on this!! It really helps a lot to know the wording on these, while the symbols offer great field for speculation. The symbol of the fish is one which does seem to appear on blades of daggers and knives in Sudanese regions well into the 20th century. As with considerable symbolism in the material culture of North Africa, one of the predominant themes are apotropaic and talismanic devices. In 16th c. Tunis, the fish was considered useful in combat against evil spirits. The fish as a talisman is noted prevalent in North Africa, especially in the south ("African Shores of the Meditteranean" C. Grant, L.Grant, 1912, p.477). The wavy line adjacent to the fish seems to be reflective of symbolism and linear motif used in the pottery and ceramics of Neolithic period in these regions. The 'dotted wavy line' motif is well known in archaeological parlance and its presence here first recognized by A.J.Arkell (" Early Khartoum", London, 1949), as he referenced Mesolithic period in Sudan, with this motif carrying into the Neolithic period. It is known that the use of these prehistoric motifs often prevail in modern symbolism in these North African cultures. Often the geometric devices, such as the triangles may be considered embellishment, however it must be remembered that the 'fibula', the triangular device of Berber folk religion is found in motif on the flyssa blade, also an apotropaic against the evil eye. A great reference for observing the use of symbolism in material culture, in this case jewellery, in North Africa, is "Africa Adorned" by Angela Fisher. Outstanding perspective. All best regards, Jim