plese help identify this pamor

[nechesh]

Kiai, i would image one can learn as much about the true history of Jawa from wayang theatre and legeend as one can learn true history of England for the writings of Arthurian legend. Myths and legends serve many great purposes, but i'm afraid accurate and reliable history is not one of them.

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by nechesh

Kiai, i would image one can learn as much about the true history of Jawa from wayang theatre and legeend as one can learn true history of England for the writings of Arthurian legend. Myths and legends serve many great purposes, but i'm afraid accurate and reliable history is not one of them.

I never said that legend is factual but there are clues there: in Java legend was the way people transmitted history. True history? Hmmmmmm. That is a very novel and Western idea that is foreign to me. Only you Westerners imagine that you can grasp the truth and all the truth and nothing but the truth. Walahualam.

An other legend which cannot be true because it doesn't involve any tangible proof but would be good to mention would be the ancient Ramayana that mentions Lokapala (the spice islands) and also Java. This means that according to the Ramayana there was trade and political relationships between the Indonesian islands and india before the Christian age or any stone buildings were built in Java. We all know that this can not be because Walmiki could have just made it up and the name Java was actually given to the island by Raffles in the early 19'th century because he was writing a book called the history of Java and he needed an island to fit in with it? Pior to Raffles' 'study' there was never a Javanese history was there so that means that there was no Java as well?

I suppose your true history of the keris uses the writings of the racist Chinese monks and Portugese pirates and reliefs on stone temples to support the idea that Indonesians were once demons (as written by the racist monks) and learned about kerises from monkeys so that they could better stab people.

Arthurian legends are not alive now while Javanese legends have had a continous narrative life since the beginning of Javanese memory. I suppose you could actually ask a British man in the street about the Chapel Perilous and he could tell you what it was. Or who was Sir Gawain? On the other hand if you asked a Java man in the street what Kawah Candradimuka is and he would be able to tell you. He will also be able to tell you who owns the arrow Pasopati and who owns the club Rujakpolo.

But then if we learnt about kerises from monkeys I suppose our legends are full of crap as well? Thank you for supporting the notion that monkeys brought the keris to Java.

I am all for supporting the views of Ma Huan about the Javanese being uncouth demons and the Java keris being used to kill at the slightest provocation, if we all agree that racism is part of the kerisology and that of course non Javanese know more about the Javanese than the Javanese themselves! Viva racism! Viva ma Huan! How could Javanese uncouth demons make a beautiful thing like a keris? Impossible! The monkeys must have taught them! That make you happy and feel scientific now?

You must use all threads and narratives and legends and other mentions or depictions of the Java keris to construct an idea of what it was. What the keris is now should also be a consideration. Or were Ma Huans jurnals free of racism and there were really demons in Java when Zeng He sailed the Ming armadas around the world?

Salam keris

[Ian]

Gentlemen:

Like so many of our discussions of keris, this one is straying into metaphysical areas and conjecture. We seem to wandering off the original topic posted by VVV.

I would also remind folks this Forum asks that we remain respectful and civil in our exchanges with other members. Some of our past keris discussions have become heated and personal, with people taking offense.

Ian.

[nechesh]

Ian, thanks for stepping in with that reminder. Certainly Kiai seems to be trying to put a great deal of words and beliefs into my mouth that certainly are not my own. I would like to keep this discussion friendly and scholarly and see no need for anyone to get too excitable.
Actually Kaia, rather than denigrate the early Javanese i would put them in the same light as ALL human beings. It seems to me it is the nature of ALL human beings to exaggerate their history and exploits in legend and song. This is true even in "continuous narrative" situations such as the one you claim exists in Jawa. And actually, i would be willing to bet that at least as many Englishmen would be able to tell you about Chapel Perilous and Sir Gawain as Javanese could identify elements of their own mythology. The English certainly spend a lot more school time on their history and legends than we Americans do, but even i as an American am fairly familar with Arthurian legend. I certainly do not claim to know more than you about your own people's legends and myths, but i would be willing to bet that your understanding of such things is the exception rather than the rule because of your intensive study of the keris. I am not so sure that the average man on the streets of Jakarta would have your knowledge of such things.
Just for the record, did the Cihnese monks state that the Javanese they encountered WERE demons, or that they BELIEVED in demons, because i think that the latter statement is probably true, no?
Still i must insist that you keep your statements to me civil and respectful as i have tried to do with you. It is possible to have discussion, debate and even diagreement with out resorting to anger and sarcasm.

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by Ian

Gentlemen:

Like so many of our discussions of keris, this one is straying into metaphysical areas and conjecture. We seem to wandering off the original topic posted by VVV.

I would also remind folks this Forum asks that we remain respectful and civil in our exchanges with other members. Some of our past keris discussions have become heated and personal, with people taking offense.

Ian.

Ian a keris is a metaphysical object more so than it is a physical object so wandering into the metaphysical is the nature of any discussion on keris.

I do not think that using quotes from an ancient racist monk, who saw the highly civilized Javanese as demons and uncouth, without pointing out that these monks had a racist bias and did not even bother to find out the name of the object they were describing, is respectful. On the contrary it is very racist and I am very shocked that this forum feels that it is scientific to tout racist statements as evidence of the keris being a weapon to kill in Java. Also according to the scientific evidence on the stone reliefs of Loro Jonggrang the keris was created by monkeys and copied by the Java Mpus who were stupider than monkeys. I do take offence when people divorce the Java keris from it's cultural context because I am Javanese, albeit a post modern one, one who is not afraid to state my mind and place high value on the knowledge of my society and my fore-fathers, higher than the colonial pseudo-science being used to rob the people of Java from describing their own spiritual weapon.

Salam Keris

[Ian]

OK guys. I think we have heard where people stand.

This thread has lost its way with respect to the original topic and I have locked it. Sorry Vinny -- I hope you got some helpful information.

Ian.

[Andrew]

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