Mandau for comment

Sajen · 9th May 2009, 04:33 PM

After I have had some time ago no good luck by a buy in e-bay (the seller have been very nice and I don't have to take it) I buy now a Mandau by Herman Historica and I think that it is a good and old one. Now I want to read your comments and special I want to know from which tribe it is.
It is 74 cm long, the blade alone is 58 cm and 1 cm thick at the base.
Many thank's in advance,
sajen

Sajen · 9th May 2009, 04:39 PM

Some more pics! Thank you Arjan for your helpful advise.

ariel · 9th May 2009, 05:11 PM

What always surprises me is a somewhat condescending attitude to non-industrial societies. Thus, the Asian nomads could not make swords and acquired them from the "settled" societies, tribal people made primitive weapons ( perhaps, with the exception of wood/horn carving, but, heck, they had all the time in the world!), etc, etc.
But then we look at this Mandau, made by head-hunting tribesmen, without any organized industrial base, and look at the quality of the blade and the intricacy of metalwork! They were professional metalwork artists!
Either we overestimate the complexity needed for such endeavors or grossly underestimate the technological abilities of small tribal masters ( perhaps, both).
My hat is off to the bladesmith who made this weapon! Nothing Passau or Toledo would be ashamed of.

Sajen · 9th May 2009, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

What always surprises me is a somewhat condescending attitude to non-industrial societies. Thus, the Asian nomads could not make swords and acquired them from the "settled" societies, tribal people made primitive weapons ( perhaps, with the exception of wood/horn carving, but, heck, they had all the time in the world!), etc, etc.
But then we look at this Mandau, made by head-hunting tribesmen, without any organized industrial base, and look at the quality of the blade and the intricacy of metalwork! They were professional metalwork artists!
Either we overestimate the complexity needed for such endeavors or grossly underestimate the technological abilities of small tribal masters ( perhaps, both).
My hat is off to the bladesmith who made this weapon! Nothing Passau or Toledo would be ashamed of.

Thank you Ariel for comment. Yes, I agree complete with you, when I see the Mandau in real (the pic from the seller have been very small) I am very positiv surprised and don't understand that it is not sold by the live auction, the price have been very cheap.
sajen

Amuk Murugul · 9th May 2009, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

..... very positiv surprised and don't understand that it is not sold by the live auction, the price have been very cheap.
sajen

I tested my theory ( a generalisation, I know) at this auction and wasn't disappointed. People attending these auctions don't like items with imperfections/defects/deficiencies or 'cheap'-looking items when there are 'better'-looking, "WOW!" items available at the same auction. Sometimes too many items of the same type don't sell well either.
Hats off , however, to the collector who got the 'kingfisher' keris. More than I would be prepared to pay.

I whole-heartedly agree with ariel's comment, especially the first sentence. 'nuff said!

As for Dayak smithing, well, they've been working with metals longer than most people in the archipelago. After all, they were the first "Malay" people to settle the island, about 3k years ago and hence became "indigenous". OF COURSE their work is second to none.
You should see how they made long blow-pipes the traditional way. I saw one being made which took about one month!... selecting the single branch, standing it on its end and SLOWWLLYYY

pushing a long thin metal rod down the centre, constantly wetting and pushing... etc. etc.

Best,

Sajen · 9th May 2009, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

Hats off , however, to the collector who got the 'kingfisher' keris. More than I would be prepared to pay.

Best,

Hello Amuk,
I think you speak about No. 3240. This one also catch my eyes!

Do you have any suggestion from which tribe this mandau?

sajen

Amuk Murugul · 10th May 2009, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Amuk,
I think you speak about No. 3240. This one also catch my eyes!

Do you have any suggestion from which tribe this mandau?

sajen

Hullo Sajen,

Yup, #3240. A good Lot.
In another thread, I mentioned that Parang/Mandau/Kalimantan/Borneo wasn't my area of 'expertise'.
But, since you asked, I'd start with Bahau.

Best,

Sajen · 10th May 2009, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

Hullo Sajen,

Yup, #3240. A good Lot.
In another thread, I mentioned that Parang/Mandau/Kalimantan/Borneo wasn't my area of 'expertise'.
But, since you asked, I'd start with Bahau.

Best,

Thank's!

asomotif · 10th May 2009, 02:20 AM

Kayan / Kenyah IMHO

Bahau I would expect to be more stylistic / more bold in style ?

(very) Nice mandau by the way. reminds me to take a look on Hermann's Historica's auctions again.

Sajen · 10th May 2009, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Kayan / Kenyah IMHO

Bahau I would expect to be more stylistic / more bold in style ?

(very) Nice mandau by the way. reminds me to take a look on Hermann's Historica's auctions again.

Thank's Willem, have a nice weekend.
sajen

Amuk Murugul · 10th May 2009, 02:54 AM

Hullo Willem,

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Kayan / Kenyah IMHO

Bahau I would expect to be more stylistic / more bold in style ?.....

I included those two tribes under Bahau (as per Brittanica). As I don't know of Dr. J.B. Anthony (a local Dayak publicist/leader) disputing this, I accepted it in good faith. Who am I to debate it?

Best,

asomotif · 14th May 2009, 01:22 PM

Quote:

I included those two tribes under Bahau (as per Brittanica).

This is new to me. This is the first time that I hear of Kayan / Kenyah being part of Bahau.

If you check Hornbill and Dragon by Bernard Sellato, he has a map with tribes in which kayan / kenyah is a pretty large group, and part of this group are Bahau and Modang tribes.

Best regards,
Willem

Sajen · 14th May 2009, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

This is new to me. This is the first time that I hear of Kayan / Kenyah being part of Bahau.

If you check Hornbill and Dragon by Bernard Sellato, he has a map with tribes in which kayan / kenyah is a pretty large group, and part of this group are Bahau and Modang tribes.

Best regards,
Willem

Hi Willem,
so you would guess that it is a Kenyah or Kayan Mandau?

Best regards,
Detlef

asomotif · 14th May 2009, 11:46 PM

Uhhhhh.....

Let's say kayan, because it looks like a hilt that Mjoberg describes as Kayan in his book "Borneo"

I am not sure if you could either pinpoint it on kenyah or Kayan as these tribes are very close to each other, and that is also a guess.

But it is a very nice example and a very good start for a mandau collection

Sajen · 14th May 2009, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Uhhhhh.....

Let's say kayan, because it looks like a hilt that Mjoberg describes as Kayan in his book "Borneo"

I am not sure if you could either pinpoint it on kenyah or Kayan as these tribes are very close to each other, and that is also a guess.

But it is a very nice example and a very good start for a mandau collection

Thank you Willem. This is already the second one I have. The other one complete with sheat and belt, only the piso raut is missing. Wooden handle and also very nice blade.
sajen

asomotif · 15th May 2009, 01:13 PM

Quote:

because it looks like a hilt that Mjoberg describes as Kayan in his book "Borneo"

Not more than educated guessing by the way.
here is the picture from the book.

Sajen · 15th May 2009, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Not more than educated guessing by the way.
here is the picture from the book.

Yes I see what you mean. Thank's for the learning lession!

Maurice · 15th May 2009, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

The other one complete with sheat and belt, only the piso raut is missing. Wooden handle and also very nice blade.

Hi Sajen,

Could you post som pics of that one please?

I found a pic of a pre 1898 handle of the mandalam kayans, from the museum nusantara Delft. I see also some similarities on that one too...

Sajen · 15th May 2009, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maurice

Hi Sajen,

Could you post som pics of that one please?

I found a pic of a pre 1898 handle of the mandalam kayans, from the museum nusantara Delft. I see also some similarities on that one too...

Hi Maurice,

thank's for the pic, yes the similarities I see also.
Pics from my other Mandau I will post later and I am already curious about your comment!

Sajen · 15th May 2009, 10:36 PM

And I still have a Mandau handle, from this one I also will post some pics.
sajen

Sajen · 16th May 2009, 06:13 PM

Here the pics from my other Mandau.

Sajen · 16th May 2009, 06:17 PM

Some close-ups.
sajen

Marcokeris · 17th May 2009, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Some close-ups.
sajen

....very very nice

Sajen · 21st May 2009, 06:09 PM

Here the pics from the handle.
sajen

9th May 2009, 04:33 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Mandau for comment After I have had some time ago no good luck by a buy in e-bay (the seller have been very nice and I don't have to take it) I buy now a Mandau by Herman Historica and I think that it is a good and old one. Now I want to read your comments and special I want to know from which tribe it is. It is 74 cm long, the blade alone is 58 cm and 1 cm thick at the base. Many thank's in advance, sajen Attached Images

9th May 2009, 04:39 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Some more pics! Thank you Arjan for your helpful advise. Attached Images Last edited by Sajen; 9th May 2009 at 04:59 PM.

16th May 2009, 06:13 PM	#21
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Here the pics from my other Mandau. Attached Images

16th May 2009, 06:17 PM	#22
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Some close-ups. sajen Attached Images

21st May 2009, 06:09 PM	#24
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Here the pics from the handle. sajen Attached Images

9th May 2009, 05:11 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	What always surprises me is a somewhat condescending attitude to non-industrial societies. Thus, the Asian nomads could not make swords and acquired them from the "settled" societies, tribal people made primitive weapons ( perhaps, with the exception of wood/horn carving, but, heck, they had all the time in the world!), etc, etc. But then we look at this Mandau, made by head-hunting tribesmen, without any organized industrial base, and look at the quality of the blade and the intricacy of metalwork! They were professional metalwork artists! Either we overestimate the complexity needed for such endeavors or grossly underestimate the technological abilities of small tribal masters ( perhaps, both). My hat is off to the bladesmith who made this weapon! Nothing Passau or Toledo would be ashamed of.

10th May 2009, 02:20 AM	#9
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	Kayan / Kenyah IMHO Bahau I would expect to be more stylistic / more bold in style ? (very) Nice mandau by the way. reminds me to take a look on Hermann's Historica's auctions again.

14th May 2009, 11:46 PM	#14
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	Uhhhhh..... Let's say kayan, because it looks like a hilt that Mjoberg describes as Kayan in his book "Borneo" I am not sure if you could either pinpoint it on kenyah or Kayan as these tribes are very close to each other, and that is also a guess. But it is a very nice example and a very good start for a mandau collection

15th May 2009, 10:36 PM	#20
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	And I still have a Mandau handle, from this one I also will post some pics. sajen