Meteoric iron used for keris's vs. for Indian weapons

Kiai Carita · 29th April 2005, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

Kiai, I would love to hear you evidence. I am sure you understand that stating that there is evidence is not the same as actually presenting evidence. There may well have been unrecorded meteor strikes on Jawa that we are unaware of, but given the size of the place, the fact that very, very few meteorite actually strike the Earth (most burn up in the atmosphere), and that of those that do, most do not contain the proper pamor materials, it just doesn't seem likely that enough of this material coulds have existed at such an early time to allow for meteorite to become so crucial to keris making that every empu would be able to include even a little in every keris they made. I look forward to your evidence because quite frankly, i would like to believe you are correct.

I think that material evidence in kerisology is not always possible or desireable as a keris is not a material weapon rather it is an esoteric weapon. Alot of what we know about keris comes from legend. Then there is the traditional esoteric practises of Javanese artist which is still kept and taught to apprentices by some people in Java. In the education of the Java poet / artist there are several meditations such as 'nggrayang raga' and 'ngraga sukma' and movement meditations like 'gerak nurani'. These meditations expand the senses and would allow a heavenly-pamor collector gather pieces of meteorite smaller than chicken eggs.

Kerises older than the Prambanan keris are also claimed by the families that own them to be made of meteorite pamor. Works by Mpu Singkir, Mpu Pitrang, Mpu Supa Mandrangi and other great Mpu are believed to use meteorite in the pamor. When the Prambanan meteorite fell everyone knew exactly what to do with it it was to make pamor.

Some people interviewed by the late Bambang Harsrinuksmo while compiling his Ensiklopedi Keris also said that until the Great Depression meteorite was for sale in the markets of Solo, Madiun, Yogya, Palembang in Sumatra and so on. Not all the pamor on the market was Prambanan pamor but all pamor was more valuable than gold. However, if it will please you, I will say that before the Prambanan meteor there is no evidence of the use of meteor in Java keris.

Salam Keris

nechesh · 29th April 2005, 08:05 PM

No Kiai, it doesn't particularly please me that you have no real evidence for your statements. It was my sincere hope you did, for who among us would not want to believe that we might own a keris with meteoric pamor?

The difficulty that arises here is one of academic study. And no, it is not the "simple academic answer" that the keris was invented by the gods and brought to Jawa by Aji Saka. This is merely a legend. Myths, legends, stories and conjecture can help to point us in directions for our study, but real evidence is needed if we are to prove our case. I am not surprised to see that you have studied the late, great Harsrinuksmo. I am probably wasting my letters here, but the Harsrinuksmo's philosophy of keris is a relatively new one. This is not to say that it does not hold relative "truths", per se. But this system has not always been the way Javanese of viewed or used the keris. Elements of it perhaps, but not in total. This is not to say that it isn't "true" for you today. Joseph Cambell, the great compiler of comparative religion, once said that he never had a true mystical experience with the various religions he studied because he never invested himself completely enough in any one system of thought. Harsrinuksmo's writings are a system of thought on the keris and if one programs this system into the hard drive that is our brain it will undoubtably yield results in the use of the keris as a mystical tool. But i do believe that if we take certain "truths" of that system and examine them outside of the system itself that they will simply not hold up to the test. The same can probably be said for any of the worlds religions. Faith plays an important part in making these systems work. For you, the existence of meteoric pamor in your keris is an important symbolic part of your mystical system of the keris. But many of us on this forum are seeking facts, not faith. We follow logic, not dogma. So i ask that you please not be offended when some of us disagree with things you state that are for you a matter of faith. I would like to be able to accept your word for it, but i will continue to dig deeper.

Kiai Carita · 29th April 2005, 10:19 PM

[QUOTE=nechesh]No Kiai, it doesn't particularly please me that you have no real evidence for your statements. It was my sincere hope you did, for who among us would not want to believe that we might own a keris with meteoric pamor?

The difficulty that arises here is one of academic study. And no, it is not the "simple academic answer" that the keris was invented by the gods and brought to Jawa by Aji Saka. This is merely a legend. Myths, legends, stories and conjecture can help to point us in directions for our study, but real evidence is needed if we are to prove our case.

Is not the existence of 'nggrayang raga', 'ngraga sukma', and 'gerak nurani' ample evidence that a Mpu would be able to find rare meteorite on the ground? And what is a percentage value compared to all the bodies in the heavens?

There is a martial arts school in Yogya called Merpati Putih and one of their specialities is to be able to see colour and form blindfolded. It is only a step further to be able to find peices of meteorite. When the first Sultan of Yogyakarta was young he would often go to a deep river in the middle of the night and chuck his diamond ring in to the dark water. Then he would begin to dive to find it and he did every time because his sences were extra sensitive because of his spiritual and physical excercises. These excercises are documented in writing (i think in Serat Cebolek or Serat Cebolang) and quoted in the Javanese poet W.S Rendra's essay 'Latihan-Latihan Sri Sultan HB I di masa Remaja' (Gramedia, Mempertimbangkan Tradisi).

The Subud spiritual school is an international institution and they teach 'gerak nurani'. Why not be truly experimental and try out these excercises and see what you are able to do before you slag off the old Javanese Mpu as not being able to find meteorite for their pamor? I think that when we analyse the Java keris we need to incorporate some post-modernism and not slag off a living story as 'merely a legend'. The scientific study of the keris must move on from the racist (I am Dutch/white and so know more about the real you than you ignoramus inlander/native who eats rice every day) point of view and incorporate the views of the people who actually own the culture and the context of the keris.

Sorry Sir, I think that your scientific approach to the keris is merely legend of science, the type of science of the Colonial era where things are always what they seem and the native is always mistaken. I believe that the humanities have developed now and the 'objects' of study cannot be seen as merely objects any more if one expects to be taken as 'scientific'. Being scientific is only an other myth anyway! I would suggest that if you have a keris that comes from before the Prambanan meteorite it would have at least a bit of meteorite in it. If pamor was not from meteorite then the Dutch and the Solo and Yogya writers would have discussed the novelty of the Prambanan pamor in that it could be used to make a keris.

I also would assume that after the influx of European metals in Java the Mpu would be able to have a wider source of pamor material and would use smaller and smaller amounts of meteorite for the lesser kerises. The remnants of the Prambanan pamor is still there for all to see in the Surakarta Kraton but at least hundreds of keris have been made using the Prambanan pamor. Reason why? Most only have a smidgin of meteorite.

I suggest you Google Subud and find a school near you and practise 'gerak nurani' so as to be able to have an idea of the powers of the old Mpu.

Salam keris.

Rick · 29th April 2005, 10:36 PM

Most Honored ,
I enter this discussion as a member , not as a staff member .
I have a suggestion and please do not take insult from it I beg of you .
Rather than Nechesh investing possibly years learning the art of divination why not find someone to accept this million dollar challenge :

http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

I assure you this is not a joke , it is a serious effort to discover if powers as you claim do indeed exist .

Most respectfully submitted .

Rick
EEWRS

Kiai Carita · 29th April 2005, 10:45 PM

Rick thakn you for your link to the million dollar challenge. I have not claimed any supernatural powers of the keris itself but I have claimed that the Merpati Putih school of martial arts can teach how to see with every cell of your body. The school's headquarters is in Yogyakarta and I would be happy to take you there and ask to see a demonstration. I would also be happy to share the million dollars with you.

Salam Keris

Rick · 29th April 2005, 10:51 PM

Most Honored , I only bring the challenge forth to try to settle the question at hand . I was not referring to the keris ; I was referring to the act of seeing with every cell of one's body .
Possibly you can contact the school to see if they have any interest . Even if they eschew the cash award it could be put to good use for any charity or school endeavor in Jawa .

Now I will step out of this discussion .

Thank you .

nechesh · 29th April 2005, 10:56 PM

Kiai, you write english exceptionally well, but i get the feeling you either are nt understanding my words or you are making assumption to what i am saying without really reading my posts. I am certainly NOT "slagging off" the mystical powers of the empu. However, even the most astute empu would have great difficulty locating pieces of nickelous meteorite that don't exist. Angain i must state what a rare occurance such a meteorite is and to hit such a small island in SEA with all that surrounding sea. I am not asking you for evidence to prove the mystical powers of the empu. Your assumption that i know nothing of such powers because i am from a different culture than yours borders on racism itself. My life has been steeped in mystical practice from many different cultures for the past 25 yrs. or more. I do, however, appreciate your suggestions and will look further into 'gerak nurani' though i hardly need to in order to understand and appreciate the powers of the ancient empu.

Kiai Carita · 29th April 2005, 11:16 PM

Dear Nechesh, I am glad to hear you are not slagging off the old Mpu. However if you think of the meteorite that have been showering earth since the beginning of time then there must be meteorite in rivers where the surface soil is brought by the waters. If only one gramme of meteorite fell on Java every year since the beginning of time how many tonnes of the stuff would be there when the Mpu's began to take center stage in the 10'th century?

You will not need years to be able to practise 'gerak nurani'. You only need a teacher to show you how and in ten minutes you will be able to do it. Find your lost keyes and stuff like that. To get really sensitive however you need longer. ... Also not only nickel containing meteorite can be used as pamor. The idea of nickel is new in kerisology, introduced by the Dutch of the old scientific school. The Javanese never knew the Western metalurgy and they had dozens of names for iron.

Salam Keris

BluErf · 30th April 2005, 01:43 AM

Interesting discussion, Gentlemen. I haven't read a series of posts as well written as Kiai Carita's for a while. Thank you and welcome to the forum, Kiai Carita.

What I'm going to write is not directly linked to the discussion above, but just some thoughts that arose while reading the posts.

While I am not a believer of supernatural or paranormal activities/powers, I do see the point that the keris in totality is anchored in more than the material world. And it is up to the individual how they want to approach the keris. So I would say Nechesh and Kiai Carita are on different sides of the same coin, and finding it difficult to see face-to-face. But that is not to say anyone is right or wrong. The world is made up of all views, just like in order to appreciate the keris, one must look at all physical angles, and then the non-physical aspects too. Some of us are 'irreconciliably' anchored in one aspect, but that is alright. Its our karma and dharma.

I think it is as important to consider how the keris is treated and perceived, as it is to look at what it is physically. The keris is a different thing as seen by different eyes, from the local Southeast Asians to the Westerners who 'veni, vidi, vici' centuries past and brought back a whole bunch of kerises to Europe (in a certain way, a fortunate outcome of an unhappy past because some of the most beautiful kerises got preserved immaculately).

Anyway, in totality, apart from the physical attributes and composition that make a keris beautiful and/or lethal, the keris has an aspect of mysticism and esoterism that is not so readily shared, understood or seen. However, just because it cannot be seen or proven does not mean it is not there (or there, for that matter). In fact, it may have never been meant to be proven. But not able to prove something does not make the thing less real. An idea/concept/story does not need to be proven. They are. (Well, if someone wants to find the exact origins, what happened to who, why the idea came up, produce evidence, etc, he could do that, but that's not the point). Just as some of these things run on 'faith', they also run on 'views'. As we may have observed, sometimes, when enough people subscribes to a view, it becomes the 'truth'.

And also, sometimes, things we cannot understand or prove is just something we cannot understand or prove. e.g. there is this man in China who can generate so much heat from his hands that he can cook a fish just holding on to it. There's this Korean master who could hold a spoonful of molten lead in his mouth. I have personally experienced a Tai Chi master who can control electricity from a live wire and allow small 'hair-raising' current to pass on to people holding onto his bare hands (in fact he could vary the current passing through). So maybe it is not too difficult to imagine people who are attuned to finding things (for whatever reasons unexplained, but not necessary paranormal/supernatural). Hey we have Jedi knights who can see into the future with the aid of the 'Force', right?

Ok, I think my thoughts are not coming together in a disciplined manner, so I better stop this verbal diarrhea.

29th April 2005, 10:36 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,365	Another Alternative Most Honored , I enter this discussion as a member , not as a staff member . I have a suggestion and please do not take insult from it I beg of you . Rather than Nechesh investing possibly years learning the art of divination why not find someone to accept this million dollar challenge : http://www.randi.org/research/index.html I assure you this is not a joke , it is a serious effort to discover if powers as you claim do indeed exist . Most respectfully submitted . Rick EEWRS

29th April 2005, 08:05 PM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	No Kiai, it doesn't particularly please me that you have no real evidence for your statements. It was my sincere hope you did, for who among us would not want to believe that we might own a keris with meteoric pamor? The difficulty that arises here is one of academic study. And no, it is not the "simple academic answer" that the keris was invented by the gods and brought to Jawa by Aji Saka. This is merely a legend. Myths, legends, stories and conjecture can help to point us in directions for our study, but real evidence is needed if we are to prove our case. I am not surprised to see that you have studied the late, great Harsrinuksmo. I am probably wasting my letters here, but the Harsrinuksmo's philosophy of keris is a relatively new one. This is not to say that it does not hold relative "truths", per se. But this system has not always been the way Javanese of viewed or used the keris. Elements of it perhaps, but not in total. This is not to say that it isn't "true" for you today. Joseph Cambell, the great compiler of comparative religion, once said that he never had a true mystical experience with the various religions he studied because he never invested himself completely enough in any one system of thought. Harsrinuksmo's writings are a system of thought on the keris and if one programs this system into the hard drive that is our brain it will undoubtably yield results in the use of the keris as a mystical tool. But i do believe that if we take certain "truths" of that system and examine them outside of the system itself that they will simply not hold up to the test. The same can probably be said for any of the worlds religions. Faith plays an important part in making these systems work. For you, the existence of meteoric pamor in your keris is an important symbolic part of your mystical system of the keris. But many of us on this forum are seeking facts, not faith. We follow logic, not dogma. So i ask that you please not be offended when some of us disagree with things you state that are for you a matter of faith. I would like to be able to accept your word for it, but i will continue to dig deeper.

29th April 2005, 10:19 PM	#3
Kiai Carita Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 91	[QUOTE=nechesh]No Kiai, it doesn't particularly please me that you have no real evidence for your statements. It was my sincere hope you did, for who among us would not want to believe that we might own a keris with meteoric pamor? The difficulty that arises here is one of academic study. And no, it is not the "simple academic answer" that the keris was invented by the gods and brought to Jawa by Aji Saka. This is merely a legend. Myths, legends, stories and conjecture can help to point us in directions for our study, but real evidence is needed if we are to prove our case. Is not the existence of 'nggrayang raga', 'ngraga sukma', and 'gerak nurani' ample evidence that a Mpu would be able to find rare meteorite on the ground? And what is a percentage value compared to all the bodies in the heavens? There is a martial arts school in Yogya called Merpati Putih and one of their specialities is to be able to see colour and form blindfolded. It is only a step further to be able to find peices of meteorite. When the first Sultan of Yogyakarta was young he would often go to a deep river in the middle of the night and chuck his diamond ring in to the dark water. Then he would begin to dive to find it and he did every time because his sences were extra sensitive because of his spiritual and physical excercises. These excercises are documented in writing (i think in Serat Cebolek or Serat Cebolang) and quoted in the Javanese poet W.S Rendra's essay 'Latihan-Latihan Sri Sultan HB I di masa Remaja' (Gramedia, Mempertimbangkan Tradisi). The Subud spiritual school is an international institution and they teach 'gerak nurani'. Why not be truly experimental and try out these excercises and see what you are able to do before you slag off the old Javanese Mpu as not being able to find meteorite for their pamor? I think that when we analyse the Java keris we need to incorporate some post-modernism and not slag off a living story as 'merely a legend'. The scientific study of the keris must move on from the racist (I am Dutch/white and so know more about the real you than you ignoramus inlander/native who eats rice every day) point of view and incorporate the views of the people who actually own the culture and the context of the keris. Sorry Sir, I think that your scientific approach to the keris is merely legend of science, the type of science of the Colonial era where things are always what they seem and the native is always mistaken. I believe that the humanities have developed now and the 'objects' of study cannot be seen as merely objects any more if one expects to be taken as 'scientific'. Being scientific is only an other myth anyway! I would suggest that if you have a keris that comes from before the Prambanan meteorite it would have at least a bit of meteorite in it. If pamor was not from meteorite then the Dutch and the Solo and Yogya writers would have discussed the novelty of the Prambanan pamor in that it could be used to make a keris. I also would assume that after the influx of European metals in Java the Mpu would be able to have a wider source of pamor material and would use smaller and smaller amounts of meteorite for the lesser kerises. The remnants of the Prambanan pamor is still there for all to see in the Surakarta Kraton but at least hundreds of keris have been made using the Prambanan pamor. Reason why? Most only have a smidgin of meteorite. I suggest you Google Subud and find a school near you and practise 'gerak nurani' so as to be able to have an idea of the powers of the old Mpu. Salam keris.

29th April 2005, 10:45 PM	#5
Kiai Carita Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 91	Rick thakn you for your link to the million dollar challenge. I have not claimed any supernatural powers of the keris itself but I have claimed that the Merpati Putih school of martial arts can teach how to see with every cell of your body. The school's headquarters is in Yogyakarta and I would be happy to take you there and ask to see a demonstration. I would also be happy to share the million dollars with you. Salam Keris

29th April 2005, 10:51 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,365	Most Honored , I only bring the challenge forth to try to settle the question at hand . I was not referring to the keris ; I was referring to the act of seeing with every cell of one's body . Possibly you can contact the school to see if they have any interest . Even if they eschew the cash award it could be put to good use for any charity or school endeavor in Jawa . Now I will step out of this discussion . Thank you .

29th April 2005, 10:56 PM	#7
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Kiai, you write english exceptionally well, but i get the feeling you either are nt understanding my words or you are making assumption to what i am saying without really reading my posts. I am certainly NOT "slagging off" the mystical powers of the empu. However, even the most astute empu would have great difficulty locating pieces of nickelous meteorite that don't exist. Angain i must state what a rare occurance such a meteorite is and to hit such a small island in SEA with all that surrounding sea. I am not asking you for evidence to prove the mystical powers of the empu. Your assumption that i know nothing of such powers because i am from a different culture than yours borders on racism itself. My life has been steeped in mystical practice from many different cultures for the past 25 yrs. or more. I do, however, appreciate your suggestions and will look further into 'gerak nurani' though i hardly need to in order to understand and appreciate the powers of the ancient empu.

29th April 2005, 11:16 PM	#8
Kiai Carita Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 91	Dear Nechesh, I am glad to hear you are not slagging off the old Mpu. However if you think of the meteorite that have been showering earth since the beginning of time then there must be meteorite in rivers where the surface soil is brought by the waters. If only one gramme of meteorite fell on Java every year since the beginning of time how many tonnes of the stuff would be there when the Mpu's began to take center stage in the 10'th century? You will not need years to be able to practise 'gerak nurani'. You only need a teacher to show you how and in ten minutes you will be able to do it. Find your lost keyes and stuff like that. To get really sensitive however you need longer. ... Also not only nickel containing meteorite can be used as pamor. The idea of nickel is new in kerisology, introduced by the Dutch of the old scientific school. The Javanese never knew the Western metalurgy and they had dozens of names for iron. Salam Keris

30th April 2005, 01:43 AM	#9
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Interesting discussion, Gentlemen. I haven't read a series of posts as well written as Kiai Carita's for a while. Thank you and welcome to the forum, Kiai Carita. What I'm going to write is not directly linked to the discussion above, but just some thoughts that arose while reading the posts. While I am not a believer of supernatural or paranormal activities/powers, I do see the point that the keris in totality is anchored in more than the material world. And it is up to the individual how they want to approach the keris. So I would say Nechesh and Kiai Carita are on different sides of the same coin, and finding it difficult to see face-to-face. But that is not to say anyone is right or wrong. The world is made up of all views, just like in order to appreciate the keris, one must look at all physical angles, and then the non-physical aspects too. Some of us are 'irreconciliably' anchored in one aspect, but that is alright. Its our karma and dharma. I think it is as important to consider how the keris is treated and perceived, as it is to look at what it is physically. The keris is a different thing as seen by different eyes, from the local Southeast Asians to the Westerners who 'veni, vidi, vici' centuries past and brought back a whole bunch of kerises to Europe (in a certain way, a fortunate outcome of an unhappy past because some of the most beautiful kerises got preserved immaculately). Anyway, in totality, apart from the physical attributes and composition that make a keris beautiful and/or lethal, the keris has an aspect of mysticism and esoterism that is not so readily shared, understood or seen. However, just because it cannot be seen or proven does not mean it is not there (or there, for that matter). In fact, it may have never been meant to be proven. But not able to prove something does not make the thing less real. An idea/concept/story does not need to be proven. They are. (Well, if someone wants to find the exact origins, what happened to who, why the idea came up, produce evidence, etc, he could do that, but that's not the point). Just as some of these things run on 'faith', they also run on 'views'. As we may have observed, sometimes, when enough people subscribes to a view, it becomes the 'truth'. And also, sometimes, things we cannot understand or prove is just something we cannot understand or prove. e.g. there is this man in China who can generate so much heat from his hands that he can cook a fish just holding on to it. There's this Korean master who could hold a spoonful of molten lead in his mouth. I have personally experienced a Tai Chi master who can control electricity from a live wire and allow small 'hair-raising' current to pass on to people holding onto his bare hands (in fact he could vary the current passing through). So maybe it is not too difficult to imagine people who are attuned to finding things (for whatever reasons unexplained, but not necessary paranormal/supernatural). Hey we have Jedi knights who can see into the future with the aid of the 'Force', right? Ok, I think my thoughts are not coming together in a disciplined manner, so I better stop this verbal diarrhea.