TS marking o a german(?) 16th century blade

Jim McDougall · 5th May 2009, 06:19 AM

Hi Valjhun,
I just wanted you to know I have just about torn the bookmobile here apart trying to find this, but so far no luck. This was all during my rampage on the 'pappenheimer' thread, so there are books everywhere

I checked 'Wallace Collection'; Cronau; Gyngell; et al, but so far no luck. Maybe someone here can help???
Michael???

What type of blade is this on? Maybe a full picture?

Just wanted you to know the post is not being ignored.

All the best,
Jim

Jeff D · 5th May 2009, 04:08 PM

Hi Valjhun

I have looked as well. I am unable to identify it yet but will keep looking. I have the suspicion this is a Solingen variation of a Toledo mark. As Jim has mentioned pictures of the entire sword or any other marks would be very useful.

All the Best
Jeff

Jim McDougall · 5th May 2009, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi Valjhun

I have looked as well. I am unable to identify it yet but will keep looking. I have the suspicion this is a Solingen variation of a Toledo mark. As Jim has mentioned pictures of the entire sword or any other marks would be very useful.

All the Best
Jeff

Hi Jeff,
Again, I'm really glad to see you here. You've always been a true bloodhound at markings...and if you cant find it......we got trouble!

Good suggestion on Solingen interpretation, as we know they copied many markings and of course many from Toledo. One clue was always misspelling and transliteration. It seems the initials should be reversed.

All the best,
Jim

cornelistromp · 5th May 2009, 05:52 PM

Hello,

All the Original 2 character Toledo marks have the name Character above the Town character (T for Toledo as the lowest character).
(This is also copied by Wolfgang Stantler, Muenchen).

your mark can be the mark of Clemens Tesche Solingen 17thC or Wilhelm Tesche Solingen early 17thC, it is published that they both have copied Toledo marks (Alonso de Sahagun, S under crown, Tomas de Ayala ST under crown).
The name of the maker T(esche) above the town mark S(olingen) makes sense if they copied well.

I think the type of the hilt and blade can give more outcome, can you place a
picture in this thread?

best regards

Valjhun · 6th May 2009, 01:44 AM

Here it is.

Is that the so called muenchen town watch sword?

cornelistromp · 6th May 2009, 07:44 AM

HI,

100% a German Sword, those swords are also made in other German cities,
I think stantler initiated those type end of 16thC in Munich.
your sword is a (later) variation of the town watch sword.
the pommel is atypical for what you would expect at the Munich town watch sword and the sword can be dated a bit later 1625-1640.

(so difficult to proof but it can be made by Tesche Solingen as mentioned in my previous reply, .....................it also can be not)

I found a Town watch sword for your reference with the characters reversed (as the Toledo Tomas de Ayala and Wolfgang Stantler marks)

regards from Holland

Jim McDougall · 6th May 2009, 09:05 PM

Very interesting, and nice examples.
I am wondering about the 'town watch' distinction used in describing these swords. I am not familiar with that term, and cannot help thinking of Rembrandt's famed painting , the so called "Night Watch". This is apparantly a militia company with arquebusiers, and I am wondering if these swords were typically favored by these company's or if the term has other meaning.

Is the asymmetrical hilt peculiar to these, or simply a popular design of the time?

All best regards,
Jim

5th May 2009, 05:52 PM	#4
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,063	Hello, All the Original 2 character Toledo marks have the name Character above the Town character (T for Toledo as the lowest character). (This is also copied by Wolfgang Stantler, Muenchen). your mark can be the mark of Clemens Tesche Solingen 17thC or Wilhelm Tesche Solingen early 17thC, it is published that they both have copied Toledo marks (Alonso de Sahagun, S under crown, Tomas de Ayala ST under crown). The name of the maker T(esche) above the town mark S(olingen) makes sense if they copied well. I think the type of the hilt and blade can give more outcome, can you place a picture in this thread? best regards Last edited by cornelistromp; 5th May 2009 at 08:07 PM.

6th May 2009, 01:44 AM	#5
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Here it is. Is that the so called muenchen town watch sword? Attached Images

6th May 2009, 07:44 AM	#6
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,063	HI, 100% a German Sword, those swords are also made in other German cities, I think stantler initiated those type end of 16thC in Munich. your sword is a (later) variation of the town watch sword. the pommel is atypical for what you would expect at the Munich town watch sword and the sword can be dated a bit later 1625-1640. (so difficult to proof but it can be made by Tesche Solingen as mentioned in my previous reply, .....................it also can be not) I found a Town watch sword for your reference with the characters reversed (as the Toledo Tomas de Ayala and Wolfgang Stantler marks) regards from Holland Attached Images

5th May 2009, 06:19 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,595	Hi Valjhun, I just wanted you to know I have just about torn the bookmobile here apart trying to find this, but so far no luck. This was all during my rampage on the 'pappenheimer' thread, so there are books everywhere I checked 'Wallace Collection'; Cronau; Gyngell; et al, but so far no luck. Maybe someone here can help??? Michael??? What type of blade is this on? Maybe a full picture? Just wanted you to know the post is not being ignored. All the best, Jim

5th May 2009, 04:08 PM	#2
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Valjhun I have looked as well. I am unable to identify it yet but will keep looking. I have the suspicion this is a Solingen variation of a Toledo mark. As Jim has mentioned pictures of the entire sword or any other marks would be very useful. All the Best Jeff

6th May 2009, 09:05 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,595	Very interesting, and nice examples. I am wondering about the 'town watch' distinction used in describing these swords. I am not familiar with that term, and cannot help thinking of Rembrandt's famed painting , the so called "Night Watch". This is apparantly a militia company with arquebusiers, and I am wondering if these swords were typically favored by these company's or if the term has other meaning. Is the asymmetrical hilt peculiar to these, or simply a popular design of the time? All best regards, Jim