Pakem and Keris

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Jussi, people are people and they have tended to organise themselves into similar social, cultural, tribal formats.

Yes, at the most basic level a cross probably generated certain thoughts and emotions in a an early Christian, and a keris probably generated certain thoughts and emotions in an early Javan.

All of that I think we can accept without argument.

However, I do not think that the thoughts and emotions of an early Christian, which were generated by the image of a cross, would have been in any way similar to the thoughts and emotions of an early Javan when he considered the keris, in any of its personas.

If we want to understand the place of the keris in Javanese culture, we need to first understand that culture. The nature of Javanese society and its culture has changed over time, so we need to relate our understanding to a specified period. To do this is not easy and requires a lot of time and study. All we can do in a discussion group such as this is to touch upon the superficial aspects.

At a superficial level, yes, both the cross and the keris expressed a certain symbolism for the groups to which they related, but that which each symbolised was different.

[Jussi M.]

Thank you Mr. Maisey, I think the logic you have applied to this matter is impenetrable. I would like to ask what do the persons on this forum who have first hand experience in dealing with both people from Western cultures as well as those living in Javanese culture think as the most difficult aspects for a Westerner to grasp regarding the Javanese culture? - I acknowledge the question is pretty widespread on how it can be interpreted but then again so is the phenomena we are discussing also. I gather there are no "right" answers to this question nevertheless I am certain there must be some aspects regarding the Javanese culture that are more difficult for an Westerner to accept and realize than most.

So, what cultural aspects do lay dormant in plane sight under the camouflage of more visible layers of the Javanese culture from the Westerners standpoint?

Boy, I do hope I am not the only one interested on these things? - Based on how busy this thread has been it seems like this place is turning onto an internet version of the dialogue between the brothers in Rainman



Thanks,

J.

[Sajen]

Dear Jussi,
only one short story to this. Some years ago I've been in Surabaya by a friend (not javanese, he is from Madura) and bought some keris by him. I reach him with a taxi and let wait the taxi driver in the front of the house. Later when we sit again inside the taxi the driver ask me what I buy over there. I take out one keris (I am sitting with my wife in the back) and show him the keris. He nearly have had an eccident because he so frightened by seeing the keris and get a gooseflesh. My wife, she is also Indonesian, told me to take away the keris. The complete time when we sitting inside the taxi he told me storys about the magic of keris. I have underestimated the credence of the magic from keris by Indonesian people complete.
sajen

[A. G. Maisey]

What a beautiful question Jussi!

But I am not going post a single response or comment in respect of this question.

You know, it may be quite educational to invite comments from our members who are of one Asian cultural heritage or another in respect of their perspective of western cultures. This could possibly tell you more about what you would like to know than direct responses to your original question will tell you.

[Rick]

Jussi,
Have you read Visible and Invisible Realms by Weiner ?

[Jussi M.]

Originally Posted by Rick

Jussi,
Have you read Visible and Invisible Realms by Weiner ?

No, but I have a vision I soon will

Thanks Rick, much appreciated!

J.

[David]

I must strongly second the Weiner book. Of course this book deals with Bali, not Jawa, but i think it will open up a few avenues of thought for you Jussi.

[Bill M]

Interesting thread. Especially Jussi M remarks. While I understand that each cultures have underlying common denominators. That point to a "hardwire" basic beliefs that are common.

I am most interested in the underlying spiritual aspects in humankind. It can be confusing seeing the "jumble".

Perhaps there are corollaries between a keris and a crucifix, but go deeper from a wider perspective. Try to go beyond the words, the chalk, the blackboard - and to the underlying syncretism of the concepts.

You may look at a voodoo altar. Often there are many Catholic objects, saints, incense, items 'borrowed' from Catholicism because there are underlying aspects that can be very similar if you dig deeper.

You may not understand a Chinese concept of Chinese Heaven, unless you are Chinese, but they have a 'Heaven'. All humans are hardwired into their concept of "heaven".

There are a few subjects that merit digging deeper.

Spirituality
Philosophy
Sex
Oil