Ceylon Piha-kaetta (?)

G. McCormack · 25th April 2009, 05:47 PM

Peter Finer had some ceylonese made-for-export pieces in one of his catalogues from a few years ago....I don't know if they sold or if we can talk about them, but if so I could try to scan the pics.....

Rick · 25th April 2009, 10:47 PM

I'd believe this was Sri Lankan made to the European taste .

One can see such hilts on european swords owned by colonial officers .

Bill M · 26th April 2009, 10:35 AM

Rand,

As I mentioned in our private posts, I'd vote for South India.

Can anyone ID the Deities??

Gavin Nugent · 26th April 2009, 11:36 AM

Bill,

You don't look so scary in your avatar anymore

, the mask come off or is this a new mask you put on?

Gav

ariel · 26th April 2009, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

Bill,

You don't look so scary in your avatar anymore

, the mask come off or is this a new mask you put on?

Gav

That's his inner child

Bill M · 26th April 2009, 01:12 PM

He is my inner King Charles Spaniel, Chumley.

He and Tucker came to the Imperial Auction. They bid on a few items, but the pieces went too high. Imagine the pieces in "Dog Dollars." A $1,000 piece is D-D$7,000 to Chumley!

Right now, Chumley is checking out the Piha Kaetta Rand posted. "Whoa, that is a lot of D-GBP!"

But he does like the auction house name: "Bone-Hams!"

Chumley wants further discussion on the Piha Kaetta.

rand · 27th April 2009, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

He is my inner King Charles Spaniel, Chumley.

He and Tucker came to the Imperial Auction. They bid on a few items, but the pieces went too high. Imagine the pieces in "Dog Dollars." A $1,000 piece is D-D$7,000 to Chumley!

Right now, Chumley is checking out the Piha Kaetta Rand posted. "Whoa, that is a lot of D-GBP!"

But he does like the auction house name: "Bone-Hams!"

Chumley wants further discussion on the Piha Kaetta.

Its apparent that Cumley is a dog of "Bone-ified" good taste, we should gnaw on this one a while.....

rand

Jim McDougall · 26th April 2009, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G. McCormack

Peter Finer had some ceylonese made-for-export pieces in one of his catalogues from a few years ago....I don't know if they sold or if we can talk about them, but if so I could try to scan the pics.....

Its OK to present pictures from catalogues as long as properly cited, and it would be great to see the pictures as made for export seems exactly the right heading for this interesting dagger.
Thank you for noting this,
All the best,
Jim

rand · 26th April 2009, 03:24 PM

First off, want to thank everyone for there input on this mysterious subject. Ever notice if you make all the right turns you travel in a circle back to where you started? (lol) Well, maybe not....

When I first looked at this dagger I just could not place it as being from Ceylon. But now am not so sure about that because of the following reasons.

Ceylonese daggers (piha kaetta) often have a "cant" handle.

Piha Khaetta sometimes have a button on top that attaches to tang running through handle.

In Ceylonese Arms and Armor is reference to Ceylon straight double edged dagger with short cross guard.

Although Sinhalese are mainly Buddhist, Hinduism has strong influence in parts of Ceylon as demonstrated by Colombo Temple.

Portugal and Netherlands colonized in 16th century, ceded to British Empire in 1815(can you say Waterloo?)

Ceylonese sword can have short straight quillons.

Color me confused but curious still....

rand

wilked aka Khun Deng · 26th April 2009, 09:58 PM

Just wanted to add a note of clarification here. I think I mentioned in a post sometime ago that I'd discussed piha-kaetta with a Sri Lankan I happened to sit with on a plane and after a bit he figured out what I was talking about (putting the two names together confused him).

He told me that "piha" and "kaetta" BOTH translate as "knife" however they are two separate languages one is Tamil and the other Sinhala. Since then and as recent as last month I've confirmed this with two other Sri Lankans.

While we as collectors have used the combination term piha-kaetta to define a certain style ether term used singly or in combination could be accurately used to describe any knife from Ceylon.

Dan

Tatyana Dianova · 27th April 2009, 01:01 PM

I vote for South India too; to be more specific, for Tamil Nadu.
I base my attribution on the handle decoration; the blade may be European. Alas, Spiral’s pictures are gone, but if I remember the details correctly, the handle ornaments are very similar to the traditional jewelry pieces of Tamil Nadu, as well as the Swami jewelry from Madras.
First, look at the gold Hindu marriage necklaces worn by Chettiar women in Tamil Nadu as the sign of marriage; it is removed upon being widowed. On the central ornament pendant the goddess Lakshmi is depicted, sometimes surrounded by the birds, apsaras, lions, yalis, etc. They look pretty similar to the top part of the dagger in question.

Tatyana Dianova · 27th April 2009, 01:03 PM

Now to the Swami jewelry. It is an Anglo-Indian hybrid style of jewelry that flourished from the middle of the 19 c. into the early 20 c. It was created mainly by P. Orr and Sons of Madras, Tamil Nadu. The local term “swami” means “god or goddess” and refers to the ornamentation of these pieces with images of the deities of Hindu pantheon. All of them were created in silver (sometimes gilt) or gold in the same technique as the dagger’s handle, i.e. cast and chased. Orr also manufactured dessert services, trays, spoons, presentation objects, etc with Indian motifs. All were essentially oriented towards Westerners. Below are some examples (alas, no Lakshmi among them…)
To me this dagger looks like a custom order made to Orr’s manufacture, but it is only a theory, of course…

rand · 27th April 2009, 02:26 PM

Seems that the evidence for the decorative motifs being Hindu are compeling and the shown jewelry from Tamil Nadu specific example of similar style work. Southern India also has many examples of a "cant" handle, many examples of upturned guard, many examples of cast silver handle, many examples of a straight double edged blade for a dagger, many examples of of Anglo European decoration. My feeling so far is that the style of art that most influenced this dagger most likely from Southern India.

That would brong us to a decision of most likely time period of manufacture. Using similar cast silver handles, scabbards as a guide such as those from Bhutan 18th century or late 17th century come to mind. The Anglo European motif go's back to at least 16th century on Indian daggers. The apparent low carot gold of the medalion seems last 18th-19th century. Whats your opinion of time period?

rand

26th April 2009, 11:36 AM	#4
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Bill Bill, You don't look so scary in your avatar anymore , the mask come off or is this a new mask you put on? Gav

26th April 2009, 09:58 PM	#10
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Piha or Kaetta = knife Just wanted to add a note of clarification here. I think I mentioned in a post sometime ago that I'd discussed piha-kaetta with a Sri Lankan I happened to sit with on a plane and after a bit he figured out what I was talking about (putting the two names together confused him). He told me that "piha" and "kaetta" BOTH translate as "knife" however they are two separate languages one is Tamil and the other Sinhala. Since then and as recent as last month I've confirmed this with two other Sri Lankans. While we as collectors have used the combination term piha-kaetta to define a certain style ether term used singly or in combination could be accurately used to describe any knife from Ceylon. Dan

27th April 2009, 01:01 PM	#11
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 734	I vote for South India too; to be more specific, for Tamil Nadu. I base my attribution on the handle decoration; the blade may be European. Alas, Spiral’s pictures are gone, but if I remember the details correctly, the handle ornaments are very similar to the traditional jewelry pieces of Tamil Nadu, as well as the Swami jewelry from Madras. First, look at the gold Hindu marriage necklaces worn by Chettiar women in Tamil Nadu as the sign of marriage; it is removed upon being widowed. On the central ornament pendant the goddess Lakshmi is depicted, sometimes surrounded by the birds, apsaras, lions, yalis, etc. They look pretty similar to the top part of the dagger in question. Attached Images

27th April 2009, 01:03 PM	#12
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 734	Now to the Swami jewelry. It is an Anglo-Indian hybrid style of jewelry that flourished from the middle of the 19 c. into the early 20 c. It was created mainly by P. Orr and Sons of Madras, Tamil Nadu. The local term “swami” means “god or goddess” and refers to the ornamentation of these pieces with images of the deities of Hindu pantheon. All of them were created in silver (sometimes gilt) or gold in the same technique as the dagger’s handle, i.e. cast and chased. Orr also manufactured dessert services, trays, spoons, presentation objects, etc with Indian motifs. All were essentially oriented towards Westerners. Below are some examples (alas, no Lakshmi among them…) To me this dagger looks like a custom order made to Orr’s manufacture, but it is only a theory, of course… Attached Images

27th April 2009, 02:26 PM	#13
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Bonhams Dagger Seems that the evidence for the decorative motifs being Hindu are compeling and the shown jewelry from Tamil Nadu specific example of similar style work. Southern India also has many examples of a "cant" handle, many examples of upturned guard, many examples of cast silver handle, many examples of a straight double edged blade for a dagger, many examples of of Anglo European decoration. My feeling so far is that the style of art that most influenced this dagger most likely from Southern India. That would brong us to a decision of most likely time period of manufacture. Using similar cast silver handles, scabbards as a guide such as those from Bhutan 18th century or late 17th century come to mind. The Anglo European motif go's back to at least 16th century on Indian daggers. The apparent low carot gold of the medalion seems last 18th-19th century. Whats your opinion of time period? rand

25th April 2009, 05:47 PM	#1
G. McCormack Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 131	Peter Finer had some ceylonese made-for-export pieces in one of his catalogues from a few years ago....I don't know if they sold or if we can talk about them, but if so I could try to scan the pics.....

25th April 2009, 10:47 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	I'd believe this was Sri Lankan made to the European taste . One can see such hilts on european swords owned by colonial officers .

26th April 2009, 10:35 AM	#3
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Rand, As I mentioned in our private posts, I'd vote for South India. Can anyone ID the Deities??

26th April 2009, 01:12 PM	#6
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	He is my inner King Charles Spaniel, Chumley. He and Tucker came to the Imperial Auction. They bid on a few items, but the pieces went too high. Imagine the pieces in "Dog Dollars." A $1,000 piece is D-D$7,000 to Chumley! Right now, Chumley is checking out the Piha Kaetta Rand posted. "Whoa, that is a lot of D-GBP!" But he does like the auction house name: "Bone-Hams!" Chumley wants further discussion on the Piha Kaetta.

26th April 2009, 03:24 PM	#9
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	First off, want to thank everyone for there input on this mysterious subject. Ever notice if you make all the right turns you travel in a circle back to where you started? (lol) Well, maybe not.... When I first looked at this dagger I just could not place it as being from Ceylon. But now am not so sure about that because of the following reasons. Ceylonese daggers (piha kaetta) often have a "cant" handle. Piha Khaetta sometimes have a button on top that attaches to tang running through handle. In Ceylonese Arms and Armor is reference to Ceylon straight double edged dagger with short cross guard. Although Sinhalese are mainly Buddhist, Hinduism has strong influence in parts of Ceylon as demonstrated by Colombo Temple. Portugal and Netherlands colonized in 16th century, ceded to British Empire in 1815(can you say Waterloo?) Ceylonese sword can have short straight quillons. Color me confused but curious still.... rand