Mid to Late 16th Century Patrons for Paper Cartridges

Matchlock · 21st April 2009, 09:22 PM

Hello, Richard,

Exquisite remarks and theses as alyways.

I just beg to differ about the probable intended use of the tow in the pouch of the better quality frog; it is tow indeed but I am afraid it would just have been scattered when trying to clean the barrel with it, and would have left considerable remains on the barrel walls. May I put forward as a thesis instead that it was rather meant to be put in the barrel after the powder and under caliber rolling (!) ball - with the whole load then rammed down with a few strokes of the rod, thus preventing the ball from rolling out of the muzzle when firing down a hillside, e.g.?

The same function has been generally attributed to the paper of a paper cartridge.

That brings us back to the patrons or cartridge boxes.

We do not know anything about their possible use with target guns but usually the bore of their drilled holes is considerably bigger than the usual target bores. Also, their main purpose was rapid loading which as far as I know was never considered to be preeminent in target shooting.

Their widened basis, in my opinion, just seems to have made it easier putting it on a table and inserting the cartridges. As the wood inside the drillings is quite rough we should assume that the actual cartridge bore was slighty below that of the box, otherwise the paper would have been torn open or the tied in ball ripped off. This would, to me, also exclude using pressure or force in withdrawing the cartriges.

As I have tried to show above, I just think that their general shape followed that of the former Gothic bolt quiver; please remember quivers originally had leather lids, too (almost all of them missing now). From ca. the 1520's, we have sources of illustration of harquebusiers's powder flasks which were also based on the basic triangular quiver shape.

I attach the only known source of illustration depicting a cartridge box and the way it was worn by its bearer. It is from an epitaph of ca. 1580.

Michael

Pukka Bundook · 23rd April 2009, 03:33 AM

Hello Michael,

Thank you for answeing my questions, and for the added pictures.

It seems for everything we learn, we have two more questions!
These patrons are something else I'd like to try making.

Regarding the tow for cleaning a barrel Michael, I am afraid I must beg to differ. In the 18th, 19th, and 20th century, tow has been used for cleaning barrels. (before that time I do not know)
I still have two fairly large rolls that belonged to my grandfather.

To clean a muzzle-loading gun, it is wound onto a tow-worm or a cleaning jag, and when wrapped on tightly, it does a very nice job of cleaning, and does not leave debris behind. I still clean my flint and matchlock gun with it.

I can not say that the tow in the pouch was indeed for cleaning, or for use as wadding though, so you may well be spot on in your belief!

Thank you for sharing these wonderfully ancient and fascinating items with us all. They are another small window into another age!

with best wishes,

Richard.

celtan · 23rd April 2009, 07:46 AM

Hi Guys,

Tow was also used to remove the residues from the pan and flint after ever 4 to 5 shots, otherwise the left-behind goo would prevent the BP in the pan from igniting. We still use it for this very same purpose.

Best

M

BTW: Nice tomb statue...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Hello Michael,

Thank you for answeing my questions, and for the added pictures.

It seems for everything we learn, we have two more questions!
These patrons are something else I'd like to try making.

Regarding the tow for cleaning a barrel Michael, I am afraid I must beg to differ. In the 18th, 19th, and 20th century, tow has been used for cleaning barrels. (before that time I do not know)
I still have two fairly large rolls that belonged to my grandfather.

To clean a muzzle-loading gun, it is wound onto a tow-worm or a cleaning jag, and when wrapped on tightly, it does a very nice job of cleaning, and does not leave debris behind. I still clean my flint and matchlock gun with it.

I can not say that the tow in the pouch was indeed for cleaning, or for use as wadding though, so you may well be spot on in your belief!

Thank you for sharing these wonderfully ancient and fascinating items with us all. They are another small window into another age!

with best wishes,

Richard.

Pukka Bundook · 23rd April 2009, 03:12 PM

Quite right, Celtan.

Cleaning the barrel isn't the only use for tow, Use as wadding, and for general cleaning was common....and still is as you state.

Cheers,

Richard.

Matchlock · 23rd April 2009, 04:57 PM

Hi Manuel and Richard,

Of course you are both right, but I forgot to mention that the tow in the pouch of my frog consists of many short fibers, each only ca. 5 cm (2 in.) long.

Best,

Michael

Pukka Bundook · 25th April 2009, 03:49 PM

Ah! Thank you Michael.
That Does make a difference!!

Probably wadding then as you alrady stated. Would be much easier to pluck out a small wad of it, than if it were in long strands.

Thanks again for the photos!

R.

Matchlock · 25th April 2009, 05:30 PM

Hello Richard,

Interesting enough, I sometimes extracted wadding plugs and felt plugs out of some loaded smoothbore flintlock barrels over the decades. They were placed on top of the ball to obviously keep it from rolling out.

In 17th century loaded military barrels I sometimes discovered very fragile wadding pieces from newspapers or books, especially in wheel-lock pistols. They may have been used to form the paper cartridges. A few torn and crumbled pieces of printed paper I found in an untouched leather holster for a long wheel-lock pistol of ca. 1620; the text was German, printed in early 17th century types, with the date 1621 clearly visible. This must have been from a paper cartridge because it contained traces of black powder and was found on the bottom of a lateral compartment containing a wooden block drilled for four paper cartriges, the wood heavily damaged and with considerable remains of black powder on the inside walls.

Even for me who has actually seen and handled a great lot of unique things, this was so unbelievable that I made a photo documentation (sadly not of the paper fragments) which I attach. The length of the holster was 64 cm, the caliber of the bores ca. 12 mm each.

This considered, I now doubt myself that those short strands of tow were actually used as a wadding because the paper of the cartridges would have served that purpose. I think that Manuel's thesis is more convincing than my own and that tow was used for cleaning the priming pan of the match- or wheel-lock musket.

Extremely demanding, these discussions, thank you so much!

With all my best wishes,
Michael

21st April 2009, 09:22 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hello, Richard, Exquisite remarks and theses as alyways. I just beg to differ about the probable intended use of the tow in the pouch of the better quality frog; it is tow indeed but I am afraid it would just have been scattered when trying to clean the barrel with it, and would have left considerable remains on the barrel walls. May I put forward as a thesis instead that it was rather meant to be put in the barrel after the powder and under caliber rolling (!) ball - with the whole load then rammed down with a few strokes of the rod, thus preventing the ball from rolling out of the muzzle when firing down a hillside, e.g.? The same function has been generally attributed to the paper of a paper cartridge. That brings us back to the patrons or cartridge boxes. We do not know anything about their possible use with target guns but usually the bore of their drilled holes is considerably bigger than the usual target bores. Also, their main purpose was rapid loading which as far as I know was never considered to be preeminent in target shooting. Their widened basis, in my opinion, just seems to have made it easier putting it on a table and inserting the cartridges. As the wood inside the drillings is quite rough we should assume that the actual cartridge bore was slighty below that of the box, otherwise the paper would have been torn open or the tied in ball ripped off. This would, to me, also exclude using pressure or force in withdrawing the cartriges. As I have tried to show above, I just think that their general shape followed that of the former Gothic bolt quiver; please remember quivers originally had leather lids, too (almost all of them missing now). From ca. the 1520's, we have sources of illustration of harquebusiers's powder flasks which were also based on the basic triangular quiver shape. I attach the only known source of illustration depicting a cartridge box and the way it was worn by its bearer. It is from an epitaph of ca. 1580. Michael Attached Images

23rd April 2009, 04:57 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Manuel and Richard, Of course you are both right, but I forgot to mention that the tow in the pouch of my frog consists of many short fibers, each only ca. 5 cm (2 in.) long. Best, Michael Last edited by Matchlock; 23rd April 2009 at 05:44 PM.

25th April 2009, 05:30 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hello Richard, Interesting enough, I sometimes extracted wadding plugs and felt plugs out of some loaded smoothbore flintlock barrels over the decades. They were placed on top of the ball to obviously keep it from rolling out. In 17th century loaded military barrels I sometimes discovered very fragile wadding pieces from newspapers or books, especially in wheel-lock pistols. They may have been used to form the paper cartridges. A few torn and crumbled pieces of printed paper I found in an untouched leather holster for a long wheel-lock pistol of ca. 1620; the text was German, printed in early 17th century types, with the date 1621 clearly visible. This must have been from a paper cartridge because it contained traces of black powder and was found on the bottom of a lateral compartment containing a wooden block drilled for four paper cartriges, the wood heavily damaged and with considerable remains of black powder on the inside walls. Even for me who has actually seen and handled a great lot of unique things, this was so unbelievable that I made a photo documentation (sadly not of the paper fragments) which I attach. The length of the holster was 64 cm, the caliber of the bores ca. 12 mm each. This considered, I now doubt myself that those short strands of tow were actually used as a wadding because the paper of the cartridges would have served that purpose. I think that Manuel's thesis is more convincing than my own and that tow was used for cleaning the priming pan of the match- or wheel-lock musket. Extremely demanding, these discussions, thank you so much! With all my best wishes, Michael Attached Images

23rd April 2009, 03:33 AM	#2
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Hello Michael, Thank you for answeing my questions, and for the added pictures. It seems for everything we learn, we have two more questions! These patrons are something else I'd like to try making. Regarding the tow for cleaning a barrel Michael, I am afraid I must beg to differ. In the 18th, 19th, and 20th century, tow has been used for cleaning barrels. (before that time I do not know) I still have two fairly large rolls that belonged to my grandfather. To clean a muzzle-loading gun, it is wound onto a tow-worm or a cleaning jag, and when wrapped on tightly, it does a very nice job of cleaning, and does not leave debris behind. I still clean my flint and matchlock gun with it. I can not say that the tow in the pouch was indeed for cleaning, or for use as wadding though, so you may well be spot on in your belief! Thank you for sharing these wonderfully ancient and fascinating items with us all. They are another small window into another age! with best wishes, Richard.

23rd April 2009, 03:12 PM	#4
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Quite right, Celtan. Cleaning the barrel isn't the only use for tow, Use as wadding, and for general cleaning was common....and still is as you state. Cheers, Richard.

25th April 2009, 03:49 PM	#6
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Ah! Thank you Michael. That Does make a difference!! Probably wadding then as you alrady stated. Would be much easier to pluck out a small wad of it, than if it were in long strands. Thanks again for the photos! R.