Keris golok?

David · 17th April 2009, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Sajen, that is the only form I am familiar with also ..

A blade that short seems to fall more in patrem territory than pedang .

Keris Pedang Patrem ... ?

I tend to agree. AFAIK "pedang" literally means "sword" and from my perspective 12" is just a wee bit too short to qualify as a sword.

Would love to see you clean the little guy up. Does it seem to have pamor?

semar · 17th April 2009, 09:57 PM

hello Gwirya

the lengte of my blad = 32 cm
and David when you don`t know this type of keris
that does not mean that the name is not correct
mabey its a other type of a keris pedang ???
because guppy`s you can find in the aquarium

regards semar

David · 17th April 2009, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semar

hello Gwirya

the lengte of my blad = 32 cm
and David when you don`t know this type of keris
that does not mean that the name is not correct
mabey its a other type of a keris pedang ???
because guppy`s you can find in the aquarium

regards semar

Sorry Semar, but i am not understanding your point about guppies. My point comes from a place of logic, which doesn't necessarily make it correct. But if the word "pedang" means "sword", why would you use it it name a dagger length weapon?

I am curious why you are insistent that it is another type of keris pedang. Do you have reference?

Amuk Murugul · 17th April 2009, 10:53 PM

Hullo everybody,

It is difficult to debate the true name of the type unless we are talking the same language, so to speak. For instance, I would have no problem in calling it a Tjoendrik (using the protocol I follow). However, among the Soenda, even this term is not definite, being interchangeable with, for example, sekin/sikkien, badi, peso blati (depending on individual and/or region).
It is important not to lose sight of the protocol under which the item is named. People tend to get carried away by mainstream/'accepted' protocols to the detriment/exclusion of others.
For all we know, it could've been called 'pedang' because its general shape resembles a type of sword. Or, 'pedang' may not have meant 'sword' at all at the time of its taxonomy.

As for being too short to be called a sword, what is the minimum length for an Occidental shortsword? One can then translate this proportionately to the Archipelago and see what the result is.

Best,

A. G. Maisey · 17th April 2009, 11:49 PM

Amuk , I agree with you 100%.

To have a "correct" name, you need to be using the same language and to be coming from the same beginning.

I do not know this keris form. Never seen it before. I have yet to check references to see if I can find it somewhere.

Maybe the correct name is "keris pedang".

Then again, maybe its not.

Just because somebody from the present time gives a name to something does not mean that that name is correct. I can remember some 20 years ago I encountered a pamor I had not seen before with a dealer in Solo. The salesman from Madura was there at the time, and I asked what the name of this pamor was. He told me it was a new pamor and nobody had named it yet, then he asked what I thought might be a good name for it. I gave a name to it.

Guess what?

Twelve months later that pamor was with a number of other dealers, and it bore the name I had given it.

Salesmen and dealers have a way of sticking names on things to help their marketting efforts. Not dissimilar to car manufacturers really.

Anyway, let's assume for the moment that the correct name is "keris pedang".

Now what we need is a reference.

It could well be keris pedang in one place, and have a different name somewhere else. Thus, whenever we say that a particular name for something is "correct", we need to also say where,and when and according to who, it is correct.

Semar, would you be so kind as to enlighten us as to the source of this terminology?

Thank you.

Amuk Murugul · 18th April 2009, 01:22 AM

Hullo again everybody,

BTW.... Remember this?

Sajen · 18th April 2009, 01:27 AM

I think so that the correct name of the dapur from the long version is "Cundrik" (like Amuk already note), see Ensiklopedi Keris page 136-137, about dapur keris lurus. But I don't know if you can call the short version with the same name, but on the other hand dapur is dapur equal how long.

The name "pedang" is colloquial.
sajen

A. G. Maisey · 18th April 2009, 02:58 AM

The keris posted by gwirya is not dhapur cundrik according the Surakarta pakem, nor according to the entry in Ensiklopedi.

It is a Lombok form.

Djalengga does not show this form, but he does show the ligan, for which he gives the alternate name of "keris pedang".

He says:- " There is a straight keris shaped like a pedang, or a pedang shaped like a keris.It is called a keris because its base is like a keris, complete with ganja, and it is called a pedang because its blade is like a pedang." (free translation)

Not really colloquial, but what it is called in Lombok, and it is a Lombok form, not a Javanese form, so you cannot align it to a Javanese palace pakem.

As Amuk Murugul said:- "It is difficult to debate the true name of the type unless we are talking the same language,---"

At the moment, I am not prepared to accept that the name for this form is "keris pedang".

It might be, but if it is, I definitely want to know according to whom. I want a reference.

Actually, its not a cundrik either. Origin is Lombok, OK, it might be Bali, but it is coming from Lombok at the moment, and it most certainly is not Jawa. In Lombok a cundrik is a distinct weapon, and the keris dhapur cundrik is a Javanese dhapur, not applicable in Lombok.

Isn't it fun ?

When you start to play "The Name Game" you can get into all sorts of hot water.

17th April 2009, 10:53 PM	#4
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 472	Hullo everybody, It is difficult to debate the true name of the type unless we are talking the same language, so to speak. For instance, I would have no problem in calling it a Tjoendrik (using the protocol I follow). However, among the Soenda, even this term is not definite, being interchangeable with, for example, sekin/sikkien, badi, peso blati (depending on individual and/or region). It is important not to lose sight of the protocol under which the item is named. People tend to get carried away by mainstream/'accepted' protocols to the detriment/exclusion of others. For all we know, it could've been called 'pedang' because its general shape resembles a type of sword. Or, 'pedang' may not have meant 'sword' at all at the time of its taxonomy. As for being too short to be called a sword, what is the minimum length for an Occidental shortsword? One can then translate this proportionately to the Archipelago and see what the result is. Best, Last edited by Amuk Murugul; 17th April 2009 at 11:04 PM.

18th April 2009, 01:22 AM	#6
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 472	Hullo again everybody, BTW.... Remember this? Attached Images

18th April 2009, 01:27 AM	#7
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	I think so that the correct name of the dapur from the long version is "Cundrik" (like Amuk already note), see Ensiklopedi Keris page 136-137, about dapur keris lurus. But I don't know if you can call the short version with the same name, but on the other hand dapur is dapur equal how long. The name "pedang" is colloquial. sajen Last edited by Sajen; 18th April 2009 at 01:42 AM.

17th April 2009, 09:57 PM	#2
semar Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 272	hello Gwirya the lengte of my blad = 32 cm and David when you don`t know this type of keris that does not mean that the name is not correct mabey its a other type of a keris pedang ??? because guppy`s you can find in the aquarium regards semar

17th April 2009, 11:49 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Amuk , I agree with you 100%. To have a "correct" name, you need to be using the same language and to be coming from the same beginning. I do not know this keris form. Never seen it before. I have yet to check references to see if I can find it somewhere. Maybe the correct name is "keris pedang". Then again, maybe its not. Just because somebody from the present time gives a name to something does not mean that that name is correct. I can remember some 20 years ago I encountered a pamor I had not seen before with a dealer in Solo. The salesman from Madura was there at the time, and I asked what the name of this pamor was. He told me it was a new pamor and nobody had named it yet, then he asked what I thought might be a good name for it. I gave a name to it. Guess what? Twelve months later that pamor was with a number of other dealers, and it bore the name I had given it. Salesmen and dealers have a way of sticking names on things to help their marketting efforts. Not dissimilar to car manufacturers really. Anyway, let's assume for the moment that the correct name is "keris pedang". Now what we need is a reference. It could well be keris pedang in one place, and have a different name somewhere else. Thus, whenever we say that a particular name for something is "correct", we need to also say where,and when and according to who, it is correct. Semar, would you be so kind as to enlighten us as to the source of this terminology? Thank you.

18th April 2009, 02:58 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	The keris posted by gwirya is not dhapur cundrik according the Surakarta pakem, nor according to the entry in Ensiklopedi. It is a Lombok form. Djalengga does not show this form, but he does show the ligan, for which he gives the alternate name of "keris pedang". He says:- " There is a straight keris shaped like a pedang, or a pedang shaped like a keris.It is called a keris because its base is like a keris, complete with ganja, and it is called a pedang because its blade is like a pedang." (free translation) Not really colloquial, but what it is called in Lombok, and it is a Lombok form, not a Javanese form, so you cannot align it to a Javanese palace pakem. As Amuk Murugul said:- "It is difficult to debate the true name of the type unless we are talking the same language,---" At the moment, I am not prepared to accept that the name for this form is "keris pedang". It might be, but if it is, I definitely want to know according to whom. I want a reference. Actually, its not a cundrik either. Origin is Lombok, OK, it might be Bali, but it is coming from Lombok at the moment, and it most certainly is not Jawa. In Lombok a cundrik is a distinct weapon, and the keris dhapur cundrik is a Javanese dhapur, not applicable in Lombok. Isn't it fun ? When you start to play "The Name Game" you can get into all sorts of hot water.