jezail

galvano · 5th April 2009, 10:52 PM

new this morning
your opininon please

ward · 5th April 2009, 11:57 PM

Native lock probaly a wedding rifle 20th century. Can you show a pic of the barrell especially from the top close to the lock sometimes the barrel's are older.

kahnjar1 · 6th April 2009, 08:51 AM

Hi Galvano,
The lock is from the British India Pattern musket of 1815, and bears the British East India Company Lion Rampant. Likely an Afghan Jezail of the period after that date. Could be as late as early to mid 20th century, as flintlocks were used tribally up to at least that time.
Hope this helps.
regards Stuart

Atlantia · 6th April 2009, 01:19 PM

Hi Galvano.

Very nice long gun.
I've a very similar one myself.

Gavin Nugent · 6th April 2009, 01:51 PM

Hey Atlantia, shouldn't that stand you have it resting on say "peace maker"?

Gav

Atlantia · 6th April 2009, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

Hey Atlantia, shouldn't that stand you have it resting on say "peace maker"?

Gav

LMAO!!!

ward · 6th April 2009, 03:14 PM

I believe that if you look at the lion on that piece it has been engraved inferring that it was a local copy.

Atlantia · 6th April 2009, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

I believe that if you look at the lion on that piece it has been engraved inferring that it was a local copy.

Hi Ward,

I thought that, but the '1' and crown look stamped. Any significance to this disparity?
I mean was it a period 'pattern part' made inside India with a QC mark added by the colonial masters?
Regards
Gene

ward · 6th April 2009, 07:29 PM

Yes that #1 is a stamp. Smaller stamps are easier to make. I actually prefer the native copies many of them show real art work. If you want to make sure pull the lock and look at the workings. I have a broomhandle mauser that was made in the afghan/pakistan area that is right down to the dimensions and markings. The reason I suspected something strange about it was there were no serial numbers. When I looked under a loop I realized that the lettering was all engraved

Jim McDougall · 6th April 2009, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

Hey Atlantia, shouldn't that stand you have it resting on say "peace maker"?

Gav

LOL! Good one Gav.
I was noting Ward's note on 'wedding rifle' and couldnt help thinking of the old cliche' 'shotgun wedding'

All the best,
Jim

ward · 6th April 2009, 08:31 PM

yes wedding rifle but you are not pointing them at the groom. You will see 2 to 4 of these at afghan weddings that have lots of mop. I do not know why but it is a tradition

Tim Simmons · 6th April 2009, 08:34 PM

I know nothing about these but this site is very interesting to explore.

http://www.armscollectors.com/darra/afghanold.htm

ward · 6th April 2009, 08:47 PM

Yes they also have this article on the website http://www.armscollectors.com/darra/darra.htm

Atlantia · 6th April 2009, 09:58 PM

Interesting articles Gentlemen thank you.
I've seen plenty of the other types (non camel-gun) as there is a rather well known seller in the UK who has had rather a lot of these 'military' types for many years now.
In fact an acquaintence who I regularly see at antiques fairs, occasionally gets one of these, an Enfield not too long ago actually.
I've tried to tell him but he wont hear it. Its a bit of a worry as technically any functional muzzle loader recently made is a licenced firearm in the Uk and having one without a black powder certificate could land you in jail.

I must admit, I hadn't made any connection between these and the Jezails, because as far as I knew, all the 'fake' stuff was coming from India.

Ward.
A Broomhandle, really?
Thats incredible! Does it fire?
I mean thats a gun that was quite an advanced machine, even by todays standards! 400m accuracy on the standard barrel, all interlocking parts and pins, the only screws the ones holding the grips on.
Whats the quality like?
Any chance of a snap of it to admire?

Regards
Gene

Jim McDougall · 6th April 2009, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

yes wedding rifle but you are not pointing them at the groom. You will see 2 to 4 of these at afghan weddings that have lots of mop. I do not know why but it is a tradition

thanks ward

ward · 6th April 2009, 11:09 PM

yes I will get a pic up this week of the broomhandle. it is 30 caliber probaly 1920-1950. every piece is hand filed and finished. The parts are generally interchangable with the german made piece. I fired it once just to see if it worked. Back when I dealt in more modern weapons I saw ak's,1911 45's, enfields,etc handmade by the afghans,chinese,and vietcong done mostly by filework and local blacksmithing.

Atlantia · 7th April 2009, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

yes I will get a pic up this week of the broomhandle. it is 30 caliber probaly 1920-1950. every piece is hand filed and finished. The parts are generally interchangable with the german made piece. I fired it once just to see if it worked. Back when I dealt in more modern weapons I saw ak's,1911 45's, enfields,etc handmade by the afghans,chinese,and vietcong done mostly by filework and local blacksmithing.

Cheers Ward, I'd genuinely love to see it!

archer · 7th April 2009, 11:31 PM

Here's a lock I believe is of East India Company origins. It came from kabul in the early sixties. There is a 2 under the crown and the lock is stamped 1811, Unless the number is regimental. the Jezail shown is probably older. Just opened the link to Darra gunsmiths, good to see they are still busy making copies.

Steve

kahnjar1 · 8th April 2009, 06:36 AM

Re the locks on these TRIBAL GUNS..........where the East India mark is found, I would think it most unlikely that it is anything other than the original.
Why would one bother to fake the mark, as the weapon it is attached to is OBVIOUSLY not the original E.I.C item! Remember that E.I.C had armories in India which made guns , as well as those supplied from England. The marks of course would differ slightly in style and application depending on the armory from which they came.
In my humble opinion, ALL those locks are the real deal.

ward · 8th April 2009, 03:10 PM

good luck with that theory. Why would you copy a piece,maybe because you could not afford the original,it was unavailable because your neighbor did not like you having to many arms,maybe because the seller thought he could sell it for more,you live in a remote area and you do not have a local gun dealer from india,east india company or england,tradition

ward · 8th April 2009, 10:23 PM

Pakistan made broomhandle all done by file and handwork

6th April 2009, 01:19 PM	#4
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Galvano. Very nice long gun. I've a very similar one myself. Last edited by Atlantia; 6th April 2009 at 06:36 PM.

6th April 2009, 01:51 PM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Gun stand Hey Atlantia, shouldn't that stand you have it resting on say "peace maker"? Gav

7th April 2009, 11:31 PM	#18
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Another Lock Here's a lock I believe is of East India Company origins. It came from kabul in the early sixties. There is a 2 under the crown and the lock is stamped 1811, Unless the number is regimental. the Jezail shown is probably older. Just opened the link to Darra gunsmiths, good to see they are still busy making copies. Steve Attached Images Last edited by archer; 8th April 2009 at 12:19 AM.

8th April 2009, 10:23 PM	#21
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Pakistan made broomhandle all done by file and handwork Attached Images

5th April 2009, 10:52 PM	#1
galvano Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 178	jezail new this morning your opininon please Attached Images

5th April 2009, 11:57 PM	#2
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Native lock probaly a wedding rifle 20th century. Can you show a pic of the barrell especially from the top close to the lock sometimes the barrel's are older.

6th April 2009, 08:51 AM	#3
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Hi Galvano, The lock is from the British India Pattern musket of 1815, and bears the British East India Company Lion Rampant. Likely an Afghan Jezail of the period after that date. Could be as late as early to mid 20th century, as flintlocks were used tribally up to at least that time. Hope this helps. regards Stuart

6th April 2009, 03:14 PM	#7
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	I believe that if you look at the lion on that piece it has been engraved inferring that it was a local copy.

6th April 2009, 07:29 PM	#9
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Yes that #1 is a stamp. Smaller stamps are easier to make. I actually prefer the native copies many of them show real art work. If you want to make sure pull the lock and look at the workings. I have a broomhandle mauser that was made in the afghan/pakistan area that is right down to the dimensions and markings. The reason I suspected something strange about it was there were no serial numbers. When I looked under a loop I realized that the lettering was all engraved

6th April 2009, 08:31 PM	#11
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	yes wedding rifle but you are not pointing them at the groom. You will see 2 to 4 of these at afghan weddings that have lots of mop. I do not know why but it is a tradition

6th April 2009, 08:34 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I know nothing about these but this site is very interesting to explore. http://www.armscollectors.com/darra/afghanold.htm

6th April 2009, 08:47 PM	#13
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Yes they also have this article on the website http://www.armscollectors.com/darra/darra.htm

6th April 2009, 09:58 PM	#14
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Interesting articles Gentlemen thank you. I've seen plenty of the other types (non camel-gun) as there is a rather well known seller in the UK who has had rather a lot of these 'military' types for many years now. In fact an acquaintence who I regularly see at antiques fairs, occasionally gets one of these, an Enfield not too long ago actually. I've tried to tell him but he wont hear it. Its a bit of a worry as technically any functional muzzle loader recently made is a licenced firearm in the Uk and having one without a black powder certificate could land you in jail. I must admit, I hadn't made any connection between these and the Jezails, because as far as I knew, all the 'fake' stuff was coming from India. Ward. A Broomhandle, really? Thats incredible! Does it fire? I mean thats a gun that was quite an advanced machine, even by todays standards! 400m accuracy on the standard barrel, all interlocking parts and pins, the only screws the ones holding the grips on. Whats the quality like? Any chance of a snap of it to admire? Regards Gene

6th April 2009, 11:09 PM	#16
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	yes I will get a pic up this week of the broomhandle. it is 30 caliber probaly 1920-1950. every piece is hand filed and finished. The parts are generally interchangable with the german made piece. I fired it once just to see if it worked. Back when I dealt in more modern weapons I saw ak's,1911 45's, enfields,etc handmade by the afghans,chinese,and vietcong done mostly by filework and local blacksmithing.

8th April 2009, 06:36 AM	#19
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Re the locks on these TRIBAL GUNS..........where the East India mark is found, I would think it most unlikely that it is anything other than the original. Why would one bother to fake the mark, as the weapon it is attached to is OBVIOUSLY not the original E.I.C item! Remember that E.I.C had armories in India which made guns , as well as those supplied from England. The marks of course would differ slightly in style and application depending on the armory from which they came. In my humble opinion, ALL those locks are the real deal.

8th April 2009, 03:10 PM	#20
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	good luck with that theory. Why would you copy a piece,maybe because you could not afford the original,it was unavailable because your neighbor did not like you having to many arms,maybe because the seller thought he could sell it for more,you live in a remote area and you do not have a local gun dealer from india,east india company or england,tradition