Tawdry Tulwar.

Pukka Bundook · 24th March 2009, 07:59 PM

The Mole blades I have seen, have had wide, shallow fullers in them, a little like th 1796 pattern.
A Mole was recently sold on ebay, But the blade had been changed for an inferior one at some time, and the tang was not riveted through the pommel as it should have been for a Mole.

Mole hilts normally have a loop for a sword knot on the disc.

I still think this is mid 19th c.

I have a couple with "readable" armoury marks like this one.

Norman,
The power tool scratches are newish, and should come out with backed abrasive paper.
Best to remove hilt for this as David says.

All best,

Richard.

Norman McCormick · 24th March 2009, 08:57 PM

Hi David and Richard,
Thanks for the help guys. I did remember a forum member had a Mole Tulwar in the Swap Forum so I had a wee look. The blade is marked with the Mole stamp and has a different profile and, as you said Richard, the pommel disc has a rectangular attachment for a sword knot. Would be interesting to know for sure if a U.K. maker other than Mole made Tulwar blades. A point on the 'armoury/makers' marks, they must have been struck when the blade was hot as they are impressively deep. All the similar stamps I have seen, to my mind, were stamped on a cold blade, whether this is of any significance I don't know. As to the removal of the hilt, do you think the cautious use of a hot air gun would do the trick? There isn't a lot of resin left in the hilt so shouldn't be too difficult, maybe the tang will have a story to tell you never know. Thanks again for your assistance.
My Regards,
Norman.

katana · 24th March 2009, 10:29 PM

Hi Norman,
now that the paint has been removed I think Richard's suggestion as to age is about right.
As to removing the hilt.....this thread is interesting reading

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...in+tulwar+heat

If the 'gouges' are not too deep....careful use of a 'Dremmel' and fine grinding wheels could be a possibility. But, I suspect that hilt removal would be the easier (overall) option and the results better.

I'm still intrigued with the deep stamps on the blade, the upper and lower are the so-called 'eyelash marks'.... the centre one is the one that I'm most curios about.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=eyelash+mark
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=eyelash+mark

Kind Regards David

Jens Nordlunde · 25th March 2009, 02:14 PM

Hi Norman,

Nice work you are doing, and I am glad to see, that you go the slow way, and don’t start out with an acid bath

. On one of my blades someone had kept himself busy sharpening the edge with a file. A fact I did not enjoy much, as I knew how long time it would take to remove the marks by hand. Instead I used Dremel finishing abrasive buffs #511, and with a good result I may add, but you should only work on a small area, to see if it also works for you.

Before you go on reading, you should remember, that these hilts have been used over a very big area, so even if you see a tulwar with the same blade and hilt, with a provenience tying it to a specific place, yours could come from a different place.

I too have a tulwar with the marks you show. The hilt on mine is slimmer, decorated, and with a hand guard. On each side of the blade is the same stamp as on yours, but on mine there are also four suns, and on the ricasso a round stamp with the name Ibrahim. On the back of the blade there is a stamp with a letter and a number, the letter is K/KA/KAH and the number 76.

Jens

Norman McCormick · 25th March 2009, 08:49 PM

Hi David,
Thanks for the pointers with regard to removing the hilt, it is a great help. I too am real curious about the marks, see the next bit.
My Regards,
Norman.

Hi Jens,
Thanks for your interest and info. I have isolated the centre impressions from both blade stamps, I would have to say that the similarity is uncanny, it might even be possible that it was the same tool used on both blades. I'm of the opinion that the stamp on my blade is slightly deeper, hence the small variations, but apart from that they are extraordinarily similar!!!! The blade on yours has some refinements that mine is lacking e.g. the fuller and the work on the spine but apart from that I do see similarities. Could the finer work on your blade account for the extra 'stamps' i.e. the suns? There are other stamps on my blade close to the hilt, photo in previous post, but they have been mostly erased by grinding. I don't know if the aforementioned is fanciful or not but to me the evidence is quite compelling. I suppose if I were correct in my assumption it only really means that a particular swordsmith made more than one blade, not unusual, and that varying degrees of blade complexity/quality were available, "plain!/deluxe!/custom!" etc. normal type commercial dealings between artisan and customer from time immemorial. In Europe blademaker and hiltmaker would usually be two different craftsmen would this have been the same in India? The hilt on your blade is quite something!! I look forward to hearing your views.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. Although, as you say, one can't assume that 'same hilt same origin' are there specifics which would tie a particular hilt design to a specific area? I'm thinking of the example of 'pin through hilt' type which generally points to N. India/Afghanistan origin.

25th March 2009, 02:14 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Norman, Nice work you are doing, and I am glad to see, that you go the slow way, and don’t start out with an acid bath. On one of my blades someone had kept himself busy sharpening the edge with a file. A fact I did not enjoy much, as I knew how long time it would take to remove the marks by hand. Instead I used Dremel finishing abrasive buffs #511, and with a good result I may add, but you should only work on a small area, to see if it also works for you. Before you go on reading, you should remember, that these hilts have been used over a very big area, so even if you see a tulwar with the same blade and hilt, with a provenience tying it to a specific place, yours could come from a different place. I too have a tulwar with the marks you show. The hilt on mine is slimmer, decorated, and with a hand guard. On each side of the blade is the same stamp as on yours, but on mine there are also four suns, and on the ricasso a round stamp with the name Ibrahim. On the back of the blade there is a stamp with a letter and a number, the letter is K/KA/KAH and the number 76. Jens Attached Images

24th March 2009, 07:59 PM	#1
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	The Mole blades I have seen, have had wide, shallow fullers in them, a little like th 1796 pattern. A Mole was recently sold on ebay, But the blade had been changed for an inferior one at some time, and the tang was not riveted through the pommel as it should have been for a Mole. Mole hilts normally have a loop for a sword knot on the disc. I still think this is mid 19th c. I have a couple with "readable" armoury marks like this one. Norman, The power tool scratches are newish, and should come out with backed abrasive paper. Best to remove hilt for this as David says. All best, Richard.

24th March 2009, 08:57 PM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,618	Hi David and Richard, Thanks for the help guys. I did remember a forum member had a Mole Tulwar in the Swap Forum so I had a wee look. The blade is marked with the Mole stamp and has a different profile and, as you said Richard, the pommel disc has a rectangular attachment for a sword knot. Would be interesting to know for sure if a U.K. maker other than Mole made Tulwar blades. A point on the 'armoury/makers' marks, they must have been struck when the blade was hot as they are impressively deep. All the similar stamps I have seen, to my mind, were stamped on a cold blade, whether this is of any significance I don't know. As to the removal of the hilt, do you think the cautious use of a hot air gun would do the trick? There isn't a lot of resin left in the hilt so shouldn't be too difficult, maybe the tang will have a story to tell you never know. Thanks again for your assistance. My Regards, Norman.

24th March 2009, 10:29 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Norman, now that the paint has been removed I think Richard's suggestion as to age is about right. As to removing the hilt.....this thread is interesting reading http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...in+tulwar+heat If the 'gouges' are not too deep....careful use of a 'Dremmel' and fine grinding wheels could be a possibility. But, I suspect that hilt removal would be the easier (overall) option and the results better. I'm still intrigued with the deep stamps on the blade, the upper and lower are the so-called 'eyelash marks'.... the centre one is the one that I'm most curios about. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=eyelash+mark http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=eyelash+mark Kind Regards David

25th March 2009, 08:49 PM	#5
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,618	Hi David, Thanks for the pointers with regard to removing the hilt, it is a great help. I too am real curious about the marks, see the next bit. My Regards, Norman. Hi Jens, Thanks for your interest and info. I have isolated the centre impressions from both blade stamps, I would have to say that the similarity is uncanny, it might even be possible that it was the same tool used on both blades. I'm of the opinion that the stamp on my blade is slightly deeper, hence the small variations, but apart from that they are extraordinarily similar!!!! The blade on yours has some refinements that mine is lacking e.g. the fuller and the work on the spine but apart from that I do see similarities. Could the finer work on your blade account for the extra 'stamps' i.e. the suns? There are other stamps on my blade close to the hilt, photo in previous post, but they have been mostly erased by grinding. I don't know if the aforementioned is fanciful or not but to me the evidence is quite compelling. I suppose if I were correct in my assumption it only really means that a particular swordsmith made more than one blade, not unusual, and that varying degrees of blade complexity/quality were available, "plain!/deluxe!/custom!" etc. normal type commercial dealings between artisan and customer from time immemorial. In Europe blademaker and hiltmaker would usually be two different craftsmen would this have been the same in India? The hilt on your blade is quite something!! I look forward to hearing your views. My Regards, Norman. P.S. Although, as you say, one can't assume that 'same hilt same origin' are there specifics which would tie a particular hilt design to a specific area? I'm thinking of the example of 'pin through hilt' type which generally points to N. India/Afghanistan origin. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 25th March 2009 at 11:33 PM.