sundang

[David]

Originally Posted by kulbuntet

To David,
No, i do not have anny examples. Of this style blade on Jawa. I do have examples for you of more bali style blades on Jawa. See Karsten Sejr Jensen Krisdisk. Since the posted Keris have a bali ukiran beside it(at least it looks like one), i wanted to put this into discusion to get info about the posibility iff it is or not.

I think that the Bali hilt in this photo is just there to prop up the sword for the picture.
I don't have the Jensen Krisdisk yet, but i wonder if the progression isn't backwards here. Aren't Bali keris styles in essence based on Javanese keris styles? Of course they evolved over the years, but didn't many Javanese empus migrate to Bali when Islam took over that island? So i wonder what period the Javanese keris that you think have a Bali style are from.
Can you post some photos?

[kulbuntet]

Originally Posted by David

I think that the Bali hilt in this photo is just there to prop up the sword for the picture.
I don't have the Jensen Krisdisk yet, but i wonder if the progression isn't backwards here. Aren't Bali keris styles in essence based on Javanese keris styles? Of course they evolved over the years, but didn't many Javanese empus migrate to Bali when Islam took over that island? So i wonder what period the Javanese keris that you think have a Bali style are from.
Can you post some photos?

I have some nice examples on the krisdisk of Jensen. From Balmbangan/north east Jawa, some of them date 17th cent.But do you think before the arival of islam there were no keris on bali or lombok? the I wil try to upload some. but not now, need some time.. have to sleep now for few hours.. work tomorow
gonna try tomorow.

And for Sajen. I dont have anny pic of that blade. Since it not on my site and the sarong needs work. Aswel does the blade (waragnan) but iff i can time tomorow, i wil try to make a pic and post it.

Regards Michel

PS Im not saying that this blade posted here is from anny area, My opinion on this moment is like Alam Shah. See manny influences in it.. but not engouh to know witch is the most posible. I stil have doubts about, but maybe most likely is kalimantan..but stil a "gues"

[VVV]

I agree that it doesn't look Moro. On the Sundang found in Malaysia and Sabah they all seems to have blades features according to the Moro, usually Tausug, conventions. So the other possible areas are Sulawesi or Sumatra.
Based on the "sorsoran" features, resembling Shahrial's Minangkabau keris as well as the strange elephant trunk, my guess is Sumatra.

Michael

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by VVV

I agree that it doesn't look Moro. On the Sundang found in Malaysia and Sabah they all seems to have blades features according to the Moro, usually Tausug, conventions. So the other possible areas are Sulawesi or Sumatra.
Based on the "sorsoran" features, resembling Shahrial's Minangkabau keris as well as the strange elephant trunk, my guess is Sumatra.

Michael

Regarding sundang class of weapons used in Sulawesi, I've been informed that it's rarely found there.. in the royal courts of Bone and Makassar, the more common ones are the kelewang, alameng/alamang, sundanga, la'bo pinae, dua lalan.. etc.. If it is used elsewhere in Sulawesi or Nusa Tenggara archipelago, do let me know where.. will follow-up.

That would leave Sumatra, the more probable area.. leaning towards central.

[David]

Originally Posted by kulbuntet

I have some nice examples on the krisdisk of Jensen. From Balmbangan/north east Jawa, some of them date 17th cent.But do you think before the arival of islam there were no keris on bali or lombok?

Of course there were keris in Bali before the arrival of Islam, but i suspect that the blades looked very much the same as the keris that also existed in Jawa at the time. Bali was, afterall, a part of the Mojopahit empire at one time so i would imagine that the kraton pakem for keris flowed from Jawa to Bali, not the other way around.