War Shillelagh

graeme gt · 11th March 2009, 01:34 PM

Yes its mine will take some more snaps .

Queequeg · 11th March 2009, 05:54 PM

I'm looking forward to these photos. Where did you get it? Any history you can share with us?

graeme gt · 11th March 2009, 08:23 PM

No history im afraid got it from antique dealer who knows i collect clubs .

Tim Simmons · 11th March 2009, 08:45 PM

Very scary man, with a white van? please dont hurt me

colin henshaw · 20th March 2009, 05:57 PM

Great stuff David. Looking forward to seeing the finished product. You may be interested in this description of the making of a Masai knobkerrie

Regards

katana · 20th March 2009, 06:15 PM

Thanks Colin

,
excellent stuff, much appreciated........ would you mind posting the next page.....my traditional Same is 'scabbard-less' ....and just as I got 'distracted' by the description of making the scabbard ....I realised it was incomplete

(

) Thank you

Kind Regards David

colin henshaw · 20th March 2009, 06:28 PM

Here is the next page David.

Best regards
Colin

katana · 20th March 2009, 06:46 PM

Thank you very much Colin

Regards David

fearn · 21st March 2009, 02:45 AM

Neat stuff, Colin and David. What is the title of that book.

Best,

F

colin henshaw · 21st March 2009, 04:13 PM

The name of the book is "Barefoot over the Serengeti" by David Read

Tim Simmons · 21st March 2009, 05:03 PM

Here is another East African example.

katana · 24th March 2009, 08:15 PM

Hi
had some time to continue the 'club'...not quite finished, but I have learnt alot.
Some observations I have noted.... the branch dictates the size and shape of the finished head/knob due to the structural grain pattern of the wood. If you ignore the grain you would seriously weaken the finished article.

The initial shaping is relatively easy and quick ....so if a club/knobkerrie was needed in a 'hurry' ...a reasonably functional piece could be made. However, the 'fine' tuning and a good finish takes some time.

I worked on the premise that the head should be worked first ....as this would determine the length and thickness of the handle (the handle was, at first, deliberately left too long / too thick ..as it is relatively easy to cut shorter and thin it, as required to give balance/useable length)

Using heat I was able to scorch / draw natural oils to the surface which improves the hardness. Treatment not done to the handle ...as a natural flex would probably absorb the impact 'blow' better.

I have quickly tested this on my very large anvil....gradually increasing the power of the impact and assessing the damage to the club head each time..two handed with a lot of force ....NO DAMAGE..... I am stunned by how lethal a blow to the head this club could deliver. Admittedly this club is larger than the usual knobkerrie ( forced by nature ..size determined due to the grain of the wood).

Handle is at present too long....great for two handed 'operation' but needs to be shortened for effective one handed use.

The dynamics of 'balance' also raise a few questions..... if the handle end was weighted ....the 'head size' could be increased and still be 'controllable' and would 'pack more of a punch'. If that weight was a metal 'spiked pommel' you would add another dimension to its use in close quarter fighting (much like a sword pommel sometimes used to strike an opponent during the melee)
Are there any examples of clubs/knobkerries with this addition ?

Regards David

colin henshaw · 25th March 2009, 06:48 AM

Hi David

Interesting to see how your club is coming along. As far as I know, the concept of a weapon with a striking surface at one end and another striking or stabbing function at the other end, has not really developed and shown to be practical. Given the tens of thousand of years mankind has been inventing weapons, I suppose this means the concept has been tried and discarded.

The only possible examples I can think of are the Indian double-bladed dagger "haladie" and a rifle with a bayonet - the stock could be used also as a club "in extremis", although there must be others...

Regards.

katana · 25th March 2009, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

Hi David

Interesting to see how your club is coming along. As far as I know, the concept of a weapon with a striking surface at one end and another striking or stabbing function at the other end, has not really developed and shown to be practical. Given the tens of thousand of years mankind has been inventing weapons, I suppose this means the concept has been tried and discarded.

Regards.

Hi Colin,
thanks for the reply. A few years ago I saw an 'offset' knobkerrie with a spike set in the handle end. The short spike was around 3" long (exposed) from the leather covered 'handle'. Never got to handle it...and only seen from a distance. I assumed that a short spear butt had been added to the knobkerrie....whether originally or added later. I have heard of situations whereby weapons...African or otherwise were altered / changed (seemed more prevalent in the Victorian era ....perhaps 'their' love of 'fantasy' and the 'exotic' , fuelled these conversions

)

My main question was the idea of counter-balancing the 'head' of the knobkerrie with a metal 'pommel'. Helping to balance a 'larger' head on a longer shaft would possibly make the 'function' more efficient. ie one aimed strike would be sufficent to dispatch your foe as the weight, length (increased speed / leverage) would generate much more 'impact energy'

Longer shafted knobkerries have a smaller head ....and some accounts from the Zulu Wars suggest that a number of strikes were required ....unless an accurate strike to the head had occurred.

Perhaps, the use of the knobkerrie in battle does not require improvements in its design. The Zulu are reported as carrying a shield, spear and knobkerrie....perhaps the techniques / tactics used, meant that design of the knobkerrie was more than adequate.

Kind Regards David

colin henshaw · 25th March 2009, 08:01 PM

I've just had a look at the Pitt-Rivers Museum "Arms & Armour Virtual Gallery" website, and it has a picture of a South American club "Macana", that features a counter-weight at the butt end of the club, in the manner you were thinking of.

Perhaps you could experiment with the club you are making by attaching a temporary weight to the handle end ?

Of course, clubs/knobkerries were used in different ways - the Masai threw theirs at the enemy before a massed spear charge, but the Zulus tended to hold on to their clubs for hand to hand combat. Also some clubs would be for purely display/element of costume. The Zulus also had a knobkerrie with an enormous head that was used for the execution of condemned individuals.

There is also a huge range of clubs to be found in the Pacific and Australasia.
Some of the Fiji clubs would require warriors of great strength to wield them.

Best regards
Colin

Tim Simmons · 25th March 2009, 08:22 PM

There is this type of spiked club from South Sudan. Also one similar with a leaf shaped spear blade instead of the spike. They are short clubs so even with a big ball I think easily used in one hand and much like double pointed fighting sticks. pic from "C, Spring. African arms and armour"

fearn · 26th March 2009, 04:10 AM

Hi David,

Neat club. One technique I ran across, but haven't tried yet, is using an iron bar to systematically harden the surface of a quarterstaff. Perhaps you can do something similar with the club head and the anvil...

As for a spike on the butt end, as we know, it's pretty common on knives and some swords, and there are wooden stabbing knives (single and double ended). I suspect that the problem with putting a spike on the end of a long club is that the centrifugal force of swinging the handle will tend to pull your hand down over the spike and off the end. Ideally, you'd want the shaft to flare before narrowing down to a spike, so that you could grip the club and swing full force, without your hands slipping.

That said, there is something to be said for having a fighting point on the back end, because it would be good for close-quarter fighting.

As for short clubs, the Mojave tribe had short clubs with spikes on the handle, so I'm not surprised that the Sudanese were doing something similar.

Fun stuff!

F

Lew · 11th March 2009, 10:01 PM

graeme gt

I was getting a stiff neck so here you go.

Btw

Nice club

Lew

M ELEY · 12th March 2009, 11:08 AM

Wow!

That is an incredible club! Very similar to the one from the movie that started this conversation. Forgive me, for I am a novice in this area of collecting, but are these made from the root bulb of the tree? The reason I ask is that I understand that some tribal people did this (as did native Americans, who would use rhododendren root). It looks like this last one might have had root tendrils or something, judging from its surface. Going out on a long limb here...

graeme gt · 12th March 2009, 03:36 PM

Hi its made from a root couldnt tell you which one tho .

VANDOO · 12th March 2009, 05:05 PM

TRIBAL PEOPLE OFTEN SELECTED THEIR MATERIALS FOR TOOLS AND WEAPONS FROM WHATEVER NATURE PROVIEDED THAT WORKED BEST FOR THE PURPOSE. MANY PLANTS ARE HARD AND DENSE ENOUGH TO MAKE A GOOD NATURAL CLUB, A PLANT WITH A GOOD HEAVY ROOT BALL WAS EASILY SHAPED. SOMETIMES THE SHAPEING BEGAN WHEN THE PLANT WAS STILL GROWING, A PLANT COULD BE BENT TO FORCE IT TO GROW IN THE SHAPE OF THE DESIRED WEAPON OR TOOL. A BAND OF STRONG MATERIAL COULD BE PLACED TIGHTLY AROUND THE TRUNK NEAR THE GROUND WHICH CAUSED THE TRUNK TO BULGE OUT AND BECOME LARGER IN DIAMETER ABOVE THE RESTRICTION.
SOMETIMES THE TRUNK WAS ACTUALLY SPLIT AND A STONE INSERTED WHICH THE PLANT WOULD GROW AND HEAL AROUND AND THEN ALL NEED BE DONE WAS CUT THE DESIRED PIECE OUT FOR A STONE HEADED CLUB OR TOOL. SOME OF THE SHAPEING WAS ALSO DONE PURLY FOR THE ARTISTIC APPEAL AS LINES AND RIDGES AND TWISTED CORKSCREW TYPE SHAFTS COULD ALSO BE MADE USING VARIOUS LIVING SHAPEING TECKNIQUES.

QUITE A NICE BASHER YOU HAVE THERE IT IS A BEAUT!!
THESE BURLS USUALLY HAVE VERY INTERESTING AND OFTEN BEAUTIFUL GRAIN PATTERNS KIND OF LIKE MOTHER NATURES ORGANIC WOODEN VERSION OF WOOTZ

THIS WOOTZ IS APPRECIATED BY ALL WOODWORKERS AS WELL AS THOSE WHO LOVE A NICE BRIAR PIPE.

11th March 2009, 08:23 PM	#3
graeme gt Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 97	No history im afraid got it from antique dealer who knows i collect clubs . Attached Images

20th March 2009, 05:57 PM	#5
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,429	Great stuff David. Looking forward to seeing the finished product. You may be interested in this description of the making of a Masai knobkerrie Regards Attached Images

20th March 2009, 06:28 PM	#7
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,429	Here is the next page David. Best regards Colin Attached Images

21st March 2009, 05:03 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	Here is another East African example. Attached Images

24th March 2009, 08:15 PM	#12
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi had some time to continue the 'club'...not quite finished, but I have learnt alot. Some observations I have noted.... the branch dictates the size and shape of the finished head/knob due to the structural grain pattern of the wood. If you ignore the grain you would seriously weaken the finished article. The initial shaping is relatively easy and quick ....so if a club/knobkerrie was needed in a 'hurry' ...a reasonably functional piece could be made. However, the 'fine' tuning and a good finish takes some time. I worked on the premise that the head should be worked first ....as this would determine the length and thickness of the handle (the handle was, at first, deliberately left too long / too thick ..as it is relatively easy to cut shorter and thin it, as required to give balance/useable length) Using heat I was able to scorch / draw natural oils to the surface which improves the hardness. Treatment not done to the handle ...as a natural flex would probably absorb the impact 'blow' better. I have quickly tested this on my very large anvil....gradually increasing the power of the impact and assessing the damage to the club head each time..two handed with a lot of force ....NO DAMAGE..... I am stunned by how lethal a blow to the head this club could deliver. Admittedly this club is larger than the usual knobkerrie ( forced by nature ..size determined due to the grain of the wood). Handle is at present too long....great for two handed 'operation' but needs to be shortened for effective one handed use. The dynamics of 'balance' also raise a few questions..... if the handle end was weighted ....the 'head size' could be increased and still be 'controllable' and would 'pack more of a punch'. If that weight was a metal 'spiked pommel' you would add another dimension to its use in close quarter fighting (much like a sword pommel sometimes used to strike an opponent during the melee) Are there any examples of clubs/knobkerries with this addition ? Regards David Attached Images

11th March 2009, 01:34 PM	#1
graeme gt Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 97	Yes its mine will take some more snaps .

11th March 2009, 05:54 PM	#2
Queequeg Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Detroit (New Mayapan) Posts: 96	I'm looking forward to these photos. Where did you get it? Any history you can share with us?

11th March 2009, 08:45 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	Very scary man, with a white van? please dont hurt me

20th March 2009, 06:15 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Thanks Colin , excellent stuff, much appreciated........ would you mind posting the next page.....my traditional Same is 'scabbard-less' ....and just as I got 'distracted' by the description of making the scabbard ....I realised it was incomplete ( ) Thank you Kind Regards David

20th March 2009, 06:46 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Thank you very much Colin Regards David

21st March 2009, 02:45 AM	#9
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Neat stuff, Colin and David. What is the title of that book. Best, F

21st March 2009, 04:13 PM	#10
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,429	The name of the book is "Barefoot over the Serengeti" by David Read

25th March 2009, 06:48 AM	#13
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,429	Hi David Interesting to see how your club is coming along. As far as I know, the concept of a weapon with a striking surface at one end and another striking or stabbing function at the other end, has not really developed and shown to be practical. Given the tens of thousand of years mankind has been inventing weapons, I suppose this means the concept has been tried and discarded. The only possible examples I can think of are the Indian double-bladed dagger "haladie" and a rifle with a bayonet - the stock could be used also as a club "in extremis", although there must be others... Regards.

25th March 2009, 08:01 PM	#15
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,429	I've just had a look at the Pitt-Rivers Museum "Arms & Armour Virtual Gallery" website, and it has a picture of a South American club "Macana", that features a counter-weight at the butt end of the club, in the manner you were thinking of. Perhaps you could experiment with the club you are making by attaching a temporary weight to the handle end ? Of course, clubs/knobkerries were used in different ways - the Masai threw theirs at the enemy before a massed spear charge, but the Zulus tended to hold on to their clubs for hand to hand combat. Also some clubs would be for purely display/element of costume. The Zulus also had a knobkerrie with an enormous head that was used for the execution of condemned individuals. There is also a huge range of clubs to be found in the Pacific and Australasia. Some of the Fiji clubs would require warriors of great strength to wield them. Best regards Colin

25th March 2009, 08:22 PM	#16
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	There is this type of spiked club from South Sudan. Also one similar with a leaf shaped spear blade instead of the spike. They are short clubs so even with a big ball I think easily used in one hand and much like double pointed fighting sticks. pic from "C, Spring. African arms and armour" Attached Images

26th March 2009, 04:10 AM	#17
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi David, Neat club. One technique I ran across, but haven't tried yet, is using an iron bar to systematically harden the surface of a quarterstaff. Perhaps you can do something similar with the club head and the anvil... As for a spike on the butt end, as we know, it's pretty common on knives and some swords, and there are wooden stabbing knives (single and double ended). I suspect that the problem with putting a spike on the end of a long club is that the centrifugal force of swinging the handle will tend to pull your hand down over the spike and off the end. Ideally, you'd want the shaft to flare before narrowing down to a spike, so that you could grip the club and swing full force, without your hands slipping. That said, there is something to be said for having a fighting point on the back end, because it would be good for close-quarter fighting. As for short clubs, the Mojave tribe had short clubs with spikes on the handle, so I'm not surprised that the Sudanese were doing something similar. Fun stuff! F

11th March 2009, 10:01 PM	#18
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	graeme gt I was getting a stiff neck so here you go. Btw Nice club Lew Attached Images

12th March 2009, 11:08 AM	#19
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,152	Wow! That is an incredible club! Very similar to the one from the movie that started this conversation. Forgive me, for I am a novice in this area of collecting, but are these made from the root bulb of the tree? The reason I ask is that I understand that some tribal people did this (as did native Americans, who would use rhododendren root). It looks like this last one might have had root tendrils or something, judging from its surface. Going out on a long limb here...

12th March 2009, 03:36 PM	#20
graeme gt Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 97	Hi its made from a root couldnt tell you which one tho .

12th March 2009, 05:05 PM	#21
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	TRIBAL PEOPLE OFTEN SELECTED THEIR MATERIALS FOR TOOLS AND WEAPONS FROM WHATEVER NATURE PROVIEDED THAT WORKED BEST FOR THE PURPOSE. MANY PLANTS ARE HARD AND DENSE ENOUGH TO MAKE A GOOD NATURAL CLUB, A PLANT WITH A GOOD HEAVY ROOT BALL WAS EASILY SHAPED. SOMETIMES THE SHAPEING BEGAN WHEN THE PLANT WAS STILL GROWING, A PLANT COULD BE BENT TO FORCE IT TO GROW IN THE SHAPE OF THE DESIRED WEAPON OR TOOL. A BAND OF STRONG MATERIAL COULD BE PLACED TIGHTLY AROUND THE TRUNK NEAR THE GROUND WHICH CAUSED THE TRUNK TO BULGE OUT AND BECOME LARGER IN DIAMETER ABOVE THE RESTRICTION. SOMETIMES THE TRUNK WAS ACTUALLY SPLIT AND A STONE INSERTED WHICH THE PLANT WOULD GROW AND HEAL AROUND AND THEN ALL NEED BE DONE WAS CUT THE DESIRED PIECE OUT FOR A STONE HEADED CLUB OR TOOL. SOME OF THE SHAPEING WAS ALSO DONE PURLY FOR THE ARTISTIC APPEAL AS LINES AND RIDGES AND TWISTED CORKSCREW TYPE SHAFTS COULD ALSO BE MADE USING VARIOUS LIVING SHAPEING TECKNIQUES. QUITE A NICE BASHER YOU HAVE THERE IT IS A BEAUT!! THESE BURLS USUALLY HAVE VERY INTERESTING AND OFTEN BEAUTIFUL GRAIN PATTERNS KIND OF LIKE MOTHER NATURES ORGANIC WOODEN VERSION OF WOOTZ THIS WOOTZ IS APPRECIATED BY ALL WOODWORKERS AS WELL AS THOSE WHO LOVE A NICE BRIAR PIPE.