Odd Asian dagger

tom hyle · 22nd April 2005, 11:43 AM

An unusual Asian dagger on ebay: #6525134949 Blade is of tanto-ish shape, seems flat, and is chisel-bevelled with a swept tip typical of tanto/aikuchi, not the "arc-segment" tip common on daito. There is no clip nor swedge to the tip, and the spine seems to be simply square. Integral (to the handle) guard with smaller ferule below forming a short shaft before the blade ala khoumiya, thi, also resembles the sheath tensioners on dagger-mounted mata tombaks, but that is not feruled, and this does not insert in the sheath. Ferule is a rough/crude iron forging, while the blade seems ground for flatness, and the handle with expanded pommel is nicely and extensively carved (and set with a coin?). Is it a chrysanthemum on the pommel? The sheath looks like SE Asian ones, has lost its bindings (glue?) and looks to have a broken scabbard-slide/tying block. Ainu/Yemishi? Japanese? Tibetan? The coin may be the key; I've seen it somewhere before.....

<I just wanted to add, since Tom did not specify, that this auction has ended. -- Mark>

<Link added http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=6525134949

Lew · 22nd April 2005, 04:28 PM

Hi Tom

The blade seems to have a straight lamination in it I would think it is of Tibetan or Bhutanese manufacture.

Lew

RSWORD · 22nd April 2005, 07:25 PM

In looking closely at the blade it reminds me of a Sikin blade from Aceh. If you notice the slight groove just beneath the spine and the real straight spine and the angled tip(although that might be a slight modification) they all could point to an Aceh blade. Sword blades from there show similar effects. The lamination would also not be out of line for a piece from that region. The dress could also be of Sumatran origin. The scabbard with the worked in clip reminds me of many a Golok,Klewang from throughout the Pacific but the floral carvings in the handle I think are not too uncommon for this region either. So, my best guess would be a Sumatran parang/golok with a possibly remounted cut down Aceh sword blade.

Rick · 22nd April 2005, 09:05 PM

You know , I'm going agree with Lew on the origin of this sweet little knife . Let's head North Northeast quite a distance to Tibet or Bhutan .

Interesting that it's chisel ground .

I'd love to see a clear overall lamination pattern ; who's to say it isn't hairpin forged ?

fearn · 22nd April 2005, 11:21 PM

Hi Rick,

I won't necessarily disagree, except that I thought that Bhutanese blades had those open scabbards like Naga daos.

Fearn

Rick · 22nd April 2005, 11:57 PM

Hi Fearn , I took a stroll through Artzi's sold section and I'm not so sure that this is a hard and fast rule with Tibet / Bhutan E.W.'s .
This is obviously not a high status piece and may not have warranted an exposed blade .

dennee · 23rd April 2005, 01:04 AM

The open-scabbard knives or short swords are the traditional ban of the Lepcha people of Sikkim, but Lepchas are also in northern Bhutan and even eastern Nepal. "Drukpa" weapons in the north of Bhutan generally have a closed scabbard. (And in the south of Bhutan are many Nepalis who carry kukris.)

The knife in question is more decorated, but its hilt resembles this seemingly Tibetan knife on the Therion Arms site: http://therionarms.com/antiques/com072.html

tom hyle · 23rd April 2005, 01:31 AM

That's a fairly normal Tibetan dagger on Therionarms; the name I have is thi, though I've seen another I can't recall; the general shape of the handle is rather similar, no?
Then there's the sheath (with frontal scabbard slide?), the chisel bevel (Tibetan daggers are usually wedge-section, I think, although this could be a special purpose knife of some sort, I suppose, or from a small ethnic group, etc.....), and the carvings on the handle, which are what remind me of Ainu work. That coin isn't tripping anyone's memory, huh? I've seen it before, and might even should know where it's from......
Thanks for the link, Rick; it really simplifies things

Rick · 23rd April 2005, 02:09 AM

Tom , that's an easy thing to do .
Just put your cursor on the address bar of the auction at the top of the page and click your left hand mouse button , a window will drop down , put your cursor on copy and click .
Then when you make a post here put your cursor in the message area click again and select paste from the drop down menu , click on that and voila ! The link appears .

It's great for us lazy people .

dennee · 23rd April 2005, 05:41 AM

Some of the straight utility knives (the sort found in the trousse sets) have beveled edges. Some modern tourist-type knives even have a ricasso and something of a bevel.

But I agree, Tom, that the carving and even the all-wood sheath seem unusual for a traditional Tibetan knife--at least for the ones I've seen.

tom hyle · 23rd April 2005, 03:03 PM

Yeah, and I don't directly know if the wooden sheath with its obvious missing bindings, but without metal oversheath nor hide covering, is unkown for Tibet, but I haven't seen it, and the scabbard slide seems odd for there, too; I usually see theirs on the back of the sheath, but similar to those on.....oh, heck, I foget the name; those N Arab jambiyas/jambiyesques with the recurved point....shabria.......which may be hand-n-hand with the metalness, though, and may be a more Western (Arab?) influence, for all I know; oh, round and round I go..............The only other nonhelpful thing I can add at the moment is that most if not all human cultures seem to have at least some chisel bevelled knives for special purposes. I supose this could as well be a fancy-handled work knife as a dagger.

Radu Transylvanicus · 23rd April 2005, 08:52 PM

Well, I say the key is the triangular motif (which looks incredibly cool, I almost decided that thing qualifies as my first tatoo) so you elude that , you cracked the safe ! I would avoid pointing the finger towards the Malay world in this case, Ill rather go for Sino-Tibetan apartnence.
I have not seen many like that but the artwork done on, the flat grip and the circular upper guard (with a little clemency, we can call it ferrule) is helping me shift my opinion to a certain area at least vaguely so far ...
So, any ,,Thumb Raiding Indiana Jones,, around that can share anything about the triangle (the chrysantemum motif is way too common to make a decision based on it, I say ...)

22nd April 2005, 11:43 AM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Odd Asian dagger An unusual Asian dagger on ebay: #6525134949 Blade is of tanto-ish shape, seems flat, and is chisel-bevelled with a swept tip typical of tanto/aikuchi, not the "arc-segment" tip common on daito. There is no clip nor swedge to the tip, and the spine seems to be simply square. Integral (to the handle) guard with smaller ferule below forming a short shaft before the blade ala khoumiya, thi, also resembles the sheath tensioners on dagger-mounted mata tombaks, but that is not feruled, and this does not insert in the sheath. Ferule is a rough/crude iron forging, while the blade seems ground for flatness, and the handle with expanded pommel is nicely and extensively carved (and set with a coin?). Is it a chrysanthemum on the pommel? The sheath looks like SE Asian ones, has lost its bindings (glue?) and looks to have a broken scabbard-slide/tying block. Ainu/Yemishi? Japanese? Tibetan? The coin may be the key; I've seen it somewhere before..... <I just wanted to add, since Tom did not specify, that this auction has ended. -- Mark> <Link added http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=6525134949 Last edited by Rick; 22nd April 2005 at 03:09 PM.

22nd April 2005, 04:28 PM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Hi Tom The blade seems to have a straight lamination in it I would think it is of Tibetan or Bhutanese manufacture. Lew

22nd April 2005, 07:25 PM	#3
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	In looking closely at the blade it reminds me of a Sikin blade from Aceh. If you notice the slight groove just beneath the spine and the real straight spine and the angled tip(although that might be a slight modification) they all could point to an Aceh blade. Sword blades from there show similar effects. The lamination would also not be out of line for a piece from that region. The dress could also be of Sumatran origin. The scabbard with the worked in clip reminds me of many a Golok,Klewang from throughout the Pacific but the floral carvings in the handle I think are not too uncommon for this region either. So, my best guess would be a Sumatran parang/golok with a possibly remounted cut down Aceh sword blade.

22nd April 2005, 09:05 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	You know , I'm going agree with Lew on the origin of this sweet little knife . Let's head North Northeast quite a distance to Tibet or Bhutan . Interesting that it's chisel ground . I'd love to see a clear overall lamination pattern ; who's to say it isn't hairpin forged ?

22nd April 2005, 11:21 PM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Rick, I won't necessarily disagree, except that I thought that Bhutanese blades had those open scabbards like Naga daos. Fearn

22nd April 2005, 11:57 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Hi Fearn , I took a stroll through Artzi's sold section and I'm not so sure that this is a hard and fast rule with Tibet / Bhutan E.W.'s . This is obviously not a high status piece and may not have warranted an exposed blade .

23rd April 2005, 01:04 AM	#7
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	The open-scabbard knives or short swords are the traditional ban of the Lepcha people of Sikkim, but Lepchas are also in northern Bhutan and even eastern Nepal. "Drukpa" weapons in the north of Bhutan generally have a closed scabbard. (And in the south of Bhutan are many Nepalis who carry kukris.) The knife in question is more decorated, but its hilt resembles this seemingly Tibetan knife on the Therion Arms site: http://therionarms.com/antiques/com072.html

23rd April 2005, 01:31 AM	#8
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	That's a fairly normal Tibetan dagger on Therionarms; the name I have is thi, though I've seen another I can't recall; the general shape of the handle is rather similar, no? Then there's the sheath (with frontal scabbard slide?), the chisel bevel (Tibetan daggers are usually wedge-section, I think, although this could be a special purpose knife of some sort, I suppose, or from a small ethnic group, etc.....), and the carvings on the handle, which are what remind me of Ainu work. That coin isn't tripping anyone's memory, huh? I've seen it before, and might even should know where it's from...... Thanks for the link, Rick; it really simplifies things

23rd April 2005, 02:09 AM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Tom , that's an easy thing to do . Just put your cursor on the address bar of the auction at the top of the page and click your left hand mouse button , a window will drop down , put your cursor on copy and click . Then when you make a post here put your cursor in the message area click again and select paste from the drop down menu , click on that and voila ! The link appears . It's great for us lazy people .

23rd April 2005, 05:41 AM	#10
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	Some of the straight utility knives (the sort found in the trousse sets) have beveled edges. Some modern tourist-type knives even have a ricasso and something of a bevel. But I agree, Tom, that the carving and even the all-wood sheath seem unusual for a traditional Tibetan knife--at least for the ones I've seen.

23rd April 2005, 03:03 PM	#11
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Yeah, and I don't directly know if the wooden sheath with its obvious missing bindings, but without metal oversheath nor hide covering, is unkown for Tibet, but I haven't seen it, and the scabbard slide seems odd for there, too; I usually see theirs on the back of the sheath, but similar to those on.....oh, heck, I foget the name; those N Arab jambiyas/jambiyesques with the recurved point....shabria.......which may be hand-n-hand with the metalness, though, and may be a more Western (Arab?) influence, for all I know; oh, round and round I go..............The only other nonhelpful thing I can add at the moment is that most if not all human cultures seem to have at least some chisel bevelled knives for special purposes. I supose this could as well be a fancy-handled work knife as a dagger.

23rd April 2005, 08:52 PM	#12
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Well, I say the key is the triangular motif (which looks incredibly cool, I almost decided that thing qualifies as my first tatoo) so you elude that , you cracked the safe ! I would avoid pointing the finger towards the Malay world in this case, Ill rather go for Sino-Tibetan apartnence. I have not seen many like that but the artwork done on, the flat grip and the circular upper guard (with a little clemency, we can call it ferrule) is helping me shift my opinion to a certain area at least vaguely so far ... So, any ,,Thumb Raiding Indiana Jones,, around that can share anything about the triangle (the chrysantemum motif is way too common to make a decision based on it, I say ...)