Katzbalgers and Related Landsknecht Swords

Matchlock · 8th March 2009, 02:09 PM

Thank you, Gonzalo,

Historic sources of illustration are the most important thing when it comes to research and dating of original pieces.

Michael

Matchlock · 11th March 2009, 04:58 PM

A very good Katzbalger, ca. 1500-10, retaining its original blackened hilt, the blade struck with a Gothic minuscule p mark, overall length 118 cm (!).

Provenance: Sotheby's London, June 20, 1929 (800 USD), bought by Wiliam Randolph Hearst and sold again Galerie Fischer, Lucerne, Switzerland, Nov 27, 1961, lot 33 (estimate 2,500 SFr; I do not know what it went for).

Michael

celtan · 12th March 2009, 03:52 AM

Is this P related to the one we often see in Swedish blades?

Manuel

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

A very good Katzbalger, ca. 1500-10, retaining its original blackened hilt, the blade struck with a Gothic minuscule p mark, overall length 118 cm (!).

Provenance: Sotheby's London, June 20, 1929 (800 USD), bought by Wiliam Randolph Hearst and sold again Galerie Fischer, Lucerne, Switzerland, Nov 27, 1961, lot 33 (estimate 2,500 SFr; I do not know what it went for).

Michael

Matchlock · 12th March 2009, 04:31 PM

Could you please post an example of the Swedish P, Manuel, and give a date for the blade(s)?

Michael

celtan · 13th March 2009, 07:24 PM

Most certainly, my good sir. Your wish is my command: c. Late 19th C. 1748 -1800s

: )

Manuel

<

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Could you please post an example of the Swedish P, Manuel, and give a date for the blade(s)?

Michael

Jim McDougall · 14th March 2009, 04:45 AM

Hi Michael and Manuel,
I am really interested in that 'P' mark on the katzbalger (not to mention I wonder where it is now...and how much it sold for in 1961!).

You seem to have some interesting examples and knowledge on Swedish weapons Manuel. Is this one of your fields of interest? There really is not a great deal of information around on them, and its great to see them posted here to learn more about them.
Is the P significant as an acceptance stamp or armoury? is does not seem to be a makers stamp.

On the katzbalger: it seems worthy of note that initials were often used in Spain and Italy as makers marks and not necessarily the initials of the maker they were associated with. It seems as if they were more like a numbered order or progression like the letters used in hallmarks later.
Also, the initials were often under a crown or within a shield rather than standing alone like this.

All the best,
Jim

Matchlock · 14th March 2009, 05:16 PM

Hi Jim and Manuel,

First of all: thank you, Manuel, for sharing these good images. As I am in no way an expert in 18th/19th century items I am unable to decide on whether this P mark is related to that on the early 16th century Katzbalger or not. All I can say is that I do not believe in a relationship between the two.

If you have close look at the respective shapes of the letter P you will see the decisive difference between an early 16th century P (actually it is a minuscule p) and the same letter, only 200 years old.

I have managed to find a few examples of 15th to 16th century p minuscules although some of them are of rather poor quality. Still I hope that you can see my point. They are taken from 15th century manuscripts; the one showing two p minuscules one above the other is the mark of the Munich gunsmith Peter Peck which is found to be struck on the barrel of a ca. 1565 wheel-lock harquebus or long pistol.

Now that brings me to the important point that you made, Jim. Altough this is the case with Peter Peck's mark and the famous PGM mark attached ("Pegnitzer goss mich", Pegnitzer founded me) on early 16th century copper alloy cast haquebut and cannon barrels, the presence of a certain letter on a late medieval or early Renaissance weapon or on any item of arts and crafts does not necessarily mean that it is the maker's mark and the inital of his name. Often enough, e.g., we find the Gothic minuscules m on 500 year old caskets ond parts of armor where it usually stands for Mary, Mother of Jesus, or ihs meaning Jesus hominum salvator, Jesus Savior of Mankind. Another good example is, I think, the Gothic minuscule n on pieces of armor and firearm barrels where it is a town mark denoting that those items were made at Nuremberg. This kept in mind, the letter p on the Katzbalger blade might well stand for the Saints Peter or Paul - or it might be the maker's initial, or a town mark. Who knows? This is open to interpretation and makes such discussions worth while.

With all my best wishes,
Michael

celtan · 15th March 2009, 03:38 AM

Hi Jim, as always, you show a keen eye.
: )
Seems I'm inordenately attracted to swedish swords, I have no idea why.
Regarding knowledge, I do believe Khanjar is far more versed in that area.
Best

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Michael and Manuel,

You seem to have some interesting examples and knowledge on Swedish weapons Manuel. Is this one of your fields of interest? There really is not a great deal of information around on them, and its great to see them posted here to learn more about them.

All the best,
Jim

11th March 2009, 04:58 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	A very good Katzbalger, ca. 1500-10, retaining its original blackened hilt, the blade struck with a Gothic minuscule p mark, overall length 118 cm (!). Provenance: Sotheby's London, June 20, 1929 (800 USD), bought by Wiliam Randolph Hearst and sold again Galerie Fischer, Lucerne, Switzerland, Nov 27, 1961, lot 33 (estimate 2,500 SFr; I do not know what it went for). Michael Attached Images

14th March 2009, 05:16 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	The Gothic minuscule P Hi Jim and Manuel, First of all: thank you, Manuel, for sharing these good images. As I am in no way an expert in 18th/19th century items I am unable to decide on whether this P mark is related to that on the early 16th century Katzbalger or not. All I can say is that I do not believe in a relationship between the two. If you have close look at the respective shapes of the letter P you will see the decisive difference between an early 16th century P (actually it is a minuscule p) and the same letter, only 200 years old. I have managed to find a few examples of 15th to 16th century p minuscules although some of them are of rather poor quality. Still I hope that you can see my point. They are taken from 15th century manuscripts; the one showing two p minuscules one above the other is the mark of the Munich gunsmith Peter Peck which is found to be struck on the barrel of a ca. 1565 wheel-lock harquebus or long pistol. Now that brings me to the important point that you made, Jim. Altough this is the case with Peter Peck's mark and the famous PGM mark attached ("Pegnitzer goss mich", Pegnitzer founded me) on early 16th century copper alloy cast haquebut and cannon barrels, the presence of a certain letter on a late medieval or early Renaissance weapon or on any item of arts and crafts does not necessarily mean that it is the maker's mark and the inital of his name. Often enough, e.g., we find the Gothic minuscules m on 500 year old caskets ond parts of armor where it usually stands for Mary, Mother of Jesus, or ihs meaning Jesus hominum salvator, Jesus Savior of Mankind. Another good example is, I think, the Gothic minuscule n on pieces of armor and firearm barrels where it is a town mark denoting that those items were made at Nuremberg. This kept in mind, the letter p on the Katzbalger blade might well stand for the Saints Peter or Paul - or it might be the maker's initial, or a town mark. Who knows? This is open to interpretation and makes such discussions worth while. With all my best wishes, Michael Attached Images

8th March 2009, 02:09 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Thank you, Gonzalo, Historic sources of illustration are the most important thing when it comes to research and dating of original pieces. Michael

12th March 2009, 04:31 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Could you please post an example of the Swedish P, Manuel, and give a date for the blade(s)? Michael

14th March 2009, 04:45 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Hi Michael and Manuel, I am really interested in that 'P' mark on the katzbalger (not to mention I wonder where it is now...and how much it sold for in 1961!). You seem to have some interesting examples and knowledge on Swedish weapons Manuel. Is this one of your fields of interest? There really is not a great deal of information around on them, and its great to see them posted here to learn more about them. Is the P significant as an acceptance stamp or armoury? is does not seem to be a makers stamp. On the katzbalger: it seems worthy of note that initials were often used in Spain and Italy as makers marks and not necessarily the initials of the maker they were associated with. It seems as if they were more like a numbered order or progression like the letters used in hallmarks later. Also, the initials were often under a crown or within a shield rather than standing alone like this. All the best, Jim