Katzbalgers and Related Landsknecht Swords

Gonzalo G · 8th March 2009, 06:15 AM

!Very interesting material! Thank you, Matchlock! You always bring good documental contributions.
Regards

Gonzalo

Matchlock · 8th March 2009, 02:09 PM

Thank you, Gonzalo,

Historic sources of illustration are the most important thing when it comes to research and dating of original pieces.

Michael

Matchlock · 11th March 2009, 04:58 PM

A very good Katzbalger, ca. 1500-10, retaining its original blackened hilt, the blade struck with a Gothic minuscule p mark, overall length 118 cm (!).

Provenance: Sotheby's London, June 20, 1929 (800 USD), bought by Wiliam Randolph Hearst and sold again Galerie Fischer, Lucerne, Switzerland, Nov 27, 1961, lot 33 (estimate 2,500 SFr; I do not know what it went for).

Michael

celtan · 12th March 2009, 03:52 AM

Is this P related to the one we often see in Swedish blades?

Manuel

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

A very good Katzbalger, ca. 1500-10, retaining its original blackened hilt, the blade struck with a Gothic minuscule p mark, overall length 118 cm (!).

Provenance: Sotheby's London, June 20, 1929 (800 USD), bought by Wiliam Randolph Hearst and sold again Galerie Fischer, Lucerne, Switzerland, Nov 27, 1961, lot 33 (estimate 2,500 SFr; I do not know what it went for).

Michael

Matchlock · 12th March 2009, 04:31 PM

Could you please post an example of the Swedish P, Manuel, and give a date for the blade(s)?

Michael

celtan · 13th March 2009, 07:24 PM

Most certainly, my good sir. Your wish is my command: c. Late 19th C. 1748 -1800s

: )

Manuel

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Could you please post an example of the Swedish P, Manuel, and give a date for the blade(s)?

Michael

Jim McDougall · 14th March 2009, 04:45 AM

Hi Michael and Manuel,
I am really interested in that 'P' mark on the katzbalger (not to mention I wonder where it is now...and how much it sold for in 1961!).

You seem to have some interesting examples and knowledge on Swedish weapons Manuel. Is this one of your fields of interest? There really is not a great deal of information around on them, and its great to see them posted here to learn more about them.
Is the P significant as an acceptance stamp or armoury? is does not seem to be a makers stamp.

On the katzbalger: it seems worthy of note that initials were often used in Spain and Italy as makers marks and not necessarily the initials of the maker they were associated with. It seems as if they were more like a numbered order or progression like the letters used in hallmarks later.
Also, the initials were often under a crown or within a shield rather than standing alone like this.

All the best,
Jim

11th March 2009, 04:58 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	A very good Katzbalger, ca. 1500-10, retaining its original blackened hilt, the blade struck with a Gothic minuscule p mark, overall length 118 cm (!). Provenance: Sotheby's London, June 20, 1929 (800 USD), bought by Wiliam Randolph Hearst and sold again Galerie Fischer, Lucerne, Switzerland, Nov 27, 1961, lot 33 (estimate 2,500 SFr; I do not know what it went for). Michael Attached Images

8th March 2009, 06:15 AM	#1
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	!Very interesting material! Thank you, Matchlock! You always bring good documental contributions. Regards Gonzalo

8th March 2009, 02:09 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Thank you, Gonzalo, Historic sources of illustration are the most important thing when it comes to research and dating of original pieces. Michael

12th March 2009, 04:31 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Could you please post an example of the Swedish P, Manuel, and give a date for the blade(s)? Michael

14th March 2009, 04:45 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Michael and Manuel, I am really interested in that 'P' mark on the katzbalger (not to mention I wonder where it is now...and how much it sold for in 1961!). You seem to have some interesting examples and knowledge on Swedish weapons Manuel. Is this one of your fields of interest? There really is not a great deal of information around on them, and its great to see them posted here to learn more about them. Is the P significant as an acceptance stamp or armoury? is does not seem to be a makers stamp. On the katzbalger: it seems worthy of note that initials were often used in Spain and Italy as makers marks and not necessarily the initials of the maker they were associated with. It seems as if they were more like a numbered order or progression like the letters used in hallmarks later. Also, the initials were often under a crown or within a shield rather than standing alone like this. All the best, Jim