War Shillelagh

David · 6th March 2009, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

With comparison to the images below that I have supplied from my small collection of walking sticks and with Monk being a true Irish man I would in the first instance think that his Shillelagh would be made from Irish Black thorn.

Ah, but was Monk really a "true Irish man"? It does seem fairly obvious that his character was based on Monk Eastman (Osterman), a Jew from Brooklyn who often used the name Delaney, probably to earn himself creds with other Irish gang members. So possibly the movie character Monk McGinn is just playing at being Irish.

Also if the shillelagh was made in the States it seems far more likely that it wood be made of local wood instead of imported Irish Black Thorn. As for the movie prop itself i haven't a clue, though i am not so sure that they would have gone out of their way to create a prop specifically made of Black Thorn since very, very few viewers would give it a second thought.

Jim McDougall · 6th March 2009, 06:19 PM

Right you are Gav!! and frankly I'm glad they dont use 'rolling pins' anymore, remember the old cartoon cliche', I think the strip was "Andy Capp" or something like that, where the frustrated wife always bopped the unwary husband with her 'tool of the trade'. I guess she baked a lot.

Good points David, and the fact that this movie character was based on a figure completely outside the Irish gangs and of later period clearly shows the licence used by film directors to gain aesthetic effect.

I have really enjoyed looking into the authenticity of certain weapons often portrayed in some movies over the years. One that I recall was the unusual 'gunstock' club used by Russell Means as the warrior Chingachgook in "The Last of the Mohicans". I recall being intrigued by the stunning blue color of this odd boomerang looking thing with dagger blade protruding. I went berserk as usual with research

and ended up talking with the guy who actually made the weapons for the movie, if I recall he made three, and somewhere in 'the archives' are photos he sent. In speaking with arms authority Norm Flayderman, he noted these were of course, not made from gunstocks, just colloquially called that, and they were used mostly by Plains tribes rather than woodland.
Just the same, the weapon chosen seems to have lent well to the movie.

If I may, one more example;
In "Sleepy Hollow" the 'Headless Horseman' played by Christopher Walken uses a terrifying looking sword that is purely fantasy. I looked deeply into history of the Hessian troops that were in upstate New York during the Revolutionary War, and these troops of the cavalry units from Germany were inadvertantly not mounted. Thier horses had been left behind, though they did carry, in some degree, the huge cavalry swords of the period, brass hilts with odd birdhead pommels and long straight blades. They were so long and cumbersome, and virtually useless fighting dismounted.
But the one in the movie, and used on horseback with a wild stallion....frightening!!!

As they always say...hooray for Hollywood!

All the best,
Jim

RomaRana · 7th March 2009, 01:08 AM

When Martin Scorsese was converting Herbert Asbury’s non fiction book, The Gangs of New York, to a movie he liked the story of Monk Eastman so much that he simply co-opted much of the character and made him Irish to fit the story.

Also, if you read the book the weapons of choice seem to be brickbats and iron pipes rolled up in newspapers for concealment (Manhattan ethonographic weapon?). I guess it was hard to walk around with a club during any historical period in NYC.

Another side note, the character Bill the Butcher in the movie is the real deal. I have tracked him down at the NYC Municipal archives and in the NYPL Social Sciences Library. I even found an insurance map of his butcher shop in the Bowery.

graeme gt · 10th March 2009, 04:46 PM

This is very similar .

Queequeg · 11th March 2009, 01:33 AM

Graeme, that's a nice one!! Do you own it? Any chance of some more pictures, perhaps in hand?

graeme gt · 11th March 2009, 01:34 PM

Yes its mine will take some more snaps .

Queequeg · 11th March 2009, 05:54 PM

I'm looking forward to these photos. Where did you get it? Any history you can share with us?

10th March 2009, 04:46 PM	#4
graeme gt Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 97	This is very similar . Attached Images

6th March 2009, 06:19 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,278	Right you are Gav!! and frankly I'm glad they dont use 'rolling pins' anymore, remember the old cartoon cliche', I think the strip was "Andy Capp" or something like that, where the frustrated wife always bopped the unwary husband with her 'tool of the trade'. I guess she baked a lot. Good points David, and the fact that this movie character was based on a figure completely outside the Irish gangs and of later period clearly shows the licence used by film directors to gain aesthetic effect. I have really enjoyed looking into the authenticity of certain weapons often portrayed in some movies over the years. One that I recall was the unusual 'gunstock' club used by Russell Means as the warrior Chingachgook in "The Last of the Mohicans". I recall being intrigued by the stunning blue color of this odd boomerang looking thing with dagger blade protruding. I went berserk as usual with research and ended up talking with the guy who actually made the weapons for the movie, if I recall he made three, and somewhere in 'the archives' are photos he sent. In speaking with arms authority Norm Flayderman, he noted these were of course, not made from gunstocks, just colloquially called that, and they were used mostly by Plains tribes rather than woodland. Just the same, the weapon chosen seems to have lent well to the movie. If I may, one more example; In "Sleepy Hollow" the 'Headless Horseman' played by Christopher Walken uses a terrifying looking sword that is purely fantasy. I looked deeply into history of the Hessian troops that were in upstate New York during the Revolutionary War, and these troops of the cavalry units from Germany were inadvertantly not mounted. Thier horses had been left behind, though they did carry, in some degree, the huge cavalry swords of the period, brass hilts with odd birdhead pommels and long straight blades. They were so long and cumbersome, and virtually useless fighting dismounted. But the one in the movie, and used on horseback with a wild stallion....frightening!!! As they always say...hooray for Hollywood! All the best, Jim

7th March 2009, 01:08 AM	#3
RomaRana Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 58	When Martin Scorsese was converting Herbert Asbury’s non fiction book, The Gangs of New York, to a movie he liked the story of Monk Eastman so much that he simply co-opted much of the character and made him Irish to fit the story. Also, if you read the book the weapons of choice seem to be brickbats and iron pipes rolled up in newspapers for concealment (Manhattan ethonographic weapon?). I guess it was hard to walk around with a club during any historical period in NYC. Another side note, the character Bill the Butcher in the movie is the real deal. I have tracked him down at the NYC Municipal archives and in the NYPL Social Sciences Library. I even found an insurance map of his butcher shop in the Bowery.

11th March 2009, 01:33 AM	#5
Queequeg Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Detroit (New Mayapan) Posts: 96	Graeme, that's a nice one!! Do you own it? Any chance of some more pictures, perhaps in hand?

11th March 2009, 01:34 PM	#6
graeme gt Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 97	Yes its mine will take some more snaps .

11th March 2009, 05:54 PM	#7
Queequeg Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Detroit (New Mayapan) Posts: 96	I'm looking forward to these photos. Where did you get it? Any history you can share with us?