Silver mounted Georgian hanger.

Norman McCormick · 5th March 2009, 07:24 PM

Hi Guys,
I'm betting the other marks, date, assay and place, as I proposed earlier, are hidden under the base of the hilt, to access this means dismounting the blade MMMMM????? Thoughts????????? My trip to Bonhams later on this month may elicit the makers name and the years which they were active, this info may have to be as near as I can get without the aforesaid dismounting. Will have to wait and see, will keep you posted.
My Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 6th March 2009, 08:07 PM

Hi,
After consulting with the Curator of European Edged Weapons at the Royal Armouries in Leeds he confirmed what I already surmised i.e. to dismount this sword to determine precisely actual age and place of manufacture would compromise the historical integrity of the piece. I will, as I said, take the sword to a silver expert in the hope that he/she will at least be able to identify the manufacturer of the silver mounts and that may give a smaller time frame within which I can place the sword. This style of sword did not last for very long so it is not as if we could be a century or so out. It is unfortunate, with British silver being so accurately marked, that the answers are so near and yet so far.

Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 6th March 2009, 08:30 PM

I heartily concur with what the curator has said, and altogether too often extremely valuable weapons are compromised by even the most earnest efforts in cleaning, identifying with necessary dismantling.

I think I would rely on the mark visible and try to compare it with known silversmiths engaged in weapons component fabricating. Since we know this sword would have dated within the approximate 1760-80 period, I think the focus there and perhaps finding other similar examples would be conceivable. By about 1780, there was considerable attention toward other hilt forms and neoclassic styling as far as I can see, and these 'lionheads' were somewhat becoming military fashion's old news. That assessment may surely be called into question with the inevitable exceptions, but I am noting from the broader sense.

I think the 'London silver hilt swords' book by Leslie Southwick (which I unfortunately do not have with me) and the book "The American Sword" by Harold Peterson, would both be excellent resources, and would give you sound clues. The Peterson book is actually comprised of two books combined, one of which is on silver hilted swords. Another good reference on lionhead swords of the period is by the late Andrew Mowbray, and he was a most astute collector and scholar of these weapons.

As I noted, I checked "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" by Neumann, but did not find anything with key associations or importance to add to this, other than the images of the earlier German hanger forms with these pommels.

All best regards,
Jim

Gavin Nugent · 12th March 2009, 09:52 PM

G'day Norman.

A book I thought you might want to find would be;

London Silver Hilted Swords by Leslie Southwich, apparently a very comprehensive work. It may be some help with this and future purchaes.
If you have trouble finding a copy let me know I may be able to help.

Gav

Jim McDougall · 12th March 2009, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

G'day Norman.

A book I thought you might want to find would be;

London Silver Hilted Swords by Leslie Southwich, apparently a very comprehensive work. It may be some help with this and future purchaes.
If you have trouble finding a copy let me know I may be able to help.

Gav

Hi Gav,
The author is Leslie Southwick, an absolutely outstanding reference, and a great resource to add above the venerable "Swords for Sea Service" by May & Annis (2 vol.) which compiled one of the great resources for English makers. It remains valuable, though numerous entries have seen been revised and reevaluated over the years, but a sound benchmark.
The Southwick reference takes it up many steps with the addition of the silver workers.
I wish I had my copy with me...couldnt smuggle it into the bookmobile during the great exodus

All the best,
Jim

12th March 2009, 09:52 PM	#4
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	A book for reference G'day Norman. A book I thought you might want to find would be; London Silver Hilted Swords by Leslie Southwich, apparently a very comprehensive work. It may be some help with this and future purchaes. If you have trouble finding a copy let me know I may be able to help. Gav

5th March 2009, 07:24 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,618	Hi Guys, I'm betting the other marks, date, assay and place, as I proposed earlier, are hidden under the base of the hilt, to access this means dismounting the blade MMMMM????? Thoughts????????? My trip to Bonhams later on this month may elicit the makers name and the years which they were active, this info may have to be as near as I can get without the aforesaid dismounting. Will have to wait and see, will keep you posted. My Regards, Norman.

6th March 2009, 08:07 PM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,618	Hi, After consulting with the Curator of European Edged Weapons at the Royal Armouries in Leeds he confirmed what I already surmised i.e. to dismount this sword to determine precisely actual age and place of manufacture would compromise the historical integrity of the piece. I will, as I said, take the sword to a silver expert in the hope that he/she will at least be able to identify the manufacturer of the silver mounts and that may give a smaller time frame within which I can place the sword. This style of sword did not last for very long so it is not as if we could be a century or so out. It is unfortunate, with British silver being so accurately marked, that the answers are so near and yet so far. Regards, Norman.

6th March 2009, 08:30 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	I heartily concur with what the curator has said, and altogether too often extremely valuable weapons are compromised by even the most earnest efforts in cleaning, identifying with necessary dismantling. I think I would rely on the mark visible and try to compare it with known silversmiths engaged in weapons component fabricating. Since we know this sword would have dated within the approximate 1760-80 period, I think the focus there and perhaps finding other similar examples would be conceivable. By about 1780, there was considerable attention toward other hilt forms and neoclassic styling as far as I can see, and these 'lionheads' were somewhat becoming military fashion's old news. That assessment may surely be called into question with the inevitable exceptions, but I am noting from the broader sense. I think the 'London silver hilt swords' book by Leslie Southwick (which I unfortunately do not have with me) and the book "The American Sword" by Harold Peterson, would both be excellent resources, and would give you sound clues. The Peterson book is actually comprised of two books combined, one of which is on silver hilted swords. Another good reference on lionhead swords of the period is by the late Andrew Mowbray, and he was a most astute collector and scholar of these weapons. As I noted, I checked "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" by Neumann, but did not find anything with key associations or importance to add to this, other than the images of the earlier German hanger forms with these pommels. All best regards, Jim