Silver mounted Georgian hanger.

Norman McCormick · 3rd March 2009, 11:22 AM

Hi Jim,
Didn't realise it was used as a dress item only. Am not sure what you mean by the advice re the hallmarks, there are no visible hallmarks that I can see only a makers mark, that's not to say there not there and I'm just missing them, but I think any hallmarks are being obscured by the hilt where it meets the guard it would be great if they were visible two minutes and I would have a date. Bonhams are having a 'Silver Day' in Glasgow on the 24th of this month I will take it along and see what an expert on 18th Cent silver can tell me.
My Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 4th March 2009, 06:40 PM

Hi Norman,
The reason I was suggesting dress sabre was simply due to the nature of the hilt components. Ivory and silver would tend to add to the fragility of the hilt, and seem to defer from combat choice. However, that is not to say an officer would not take it on campaign, as it is certainly still effective as a weapon, regardless of being more highly prone to damage.
Officers as previously mentioned, were highly inclined to flamboyance, so I suppose how to properly classify this sabre would be subjective.

The stamped marking in the hilt I would consider a hallmark, as typically hilts were not marked by makers, and virtually all silverwork items required being hallmarked. The exception I can think of pertaining to makers stamping names into hilts, ironically was on a brass lionhead, ivory grip and gadrooned example quite similar to this. In cartouche on the hilt in somewhat similar location was the name READ. This was John Read, Birmingham from what I can recall (its been quite a few years). The blade was the straight, long cavalry blade of c.1770's.
I really look forward to what the silver experts will say. The great thing about hallmarks is they were so stringently regulated and catalogued. The title by Leslie Southwick may have those pertaining to weapon makers, but I cant recall.

All the best,
Jim

fernando · 4th March 2009, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Norman,
The reason I was suggesting dress sabre was simply due to the nature of the hilt components. Ivory and silver would tend to add to the fragility of the hilt, and seem to defer from combat choice. However, that is not to say an officer would not take it on campaign, as it is certainly still effective as a weapon, regardless of being more highly prone to damage.
Officers as previously mentioned, were highly inclined to flamboyance, so I suppose how to properly classify this sabre would be subjective...

Amen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... The stamped marking in the hilt I would consider a hallmark, as typically hilts were not marked by makers, and virtually all silverwork items required being hallmarked....

I also think silver hilts would be hall marked in a general manner, and not as 'weaponry silver'... Britain and elsewhere.
The British system follows basically the pattern here illustrated.
If this sword (hilt) was British made, and judging by the orientation of that letter T, this could be the initial of the maker, assuming the little probability of the remaining symbols, which have to be horizontaly aligned, be hidden beneath the grip mount.
The last letter in the hallmark symbol sequence is the 'date letter', a system as old as beg. XVIII century, i would say. It is a precious symbol for dating and placing British silver stuff. There are lists with these letters, where one can see, depending on which letter, its font and the shape of 'estucheon' is inserted in, the date and city where the item was made ... better say, marked.
But this would not be the case of the letter in Norman's sword hilt, i guess.
Fernando

.

Jim McDougall · 5th March 2009, 06:05 PM

Hi Fernando,
Extremely well placed points! and your summation of them present your ideas in a compellingly plausible manner. I understand that in these times, as noted, these hilt components, in particular the pommels, were often stockpiled by makers.
In following your lead in this outstanding material on the identification and purposes of these stamped markings, I thought to look into the venerable reference by J.D.Aylward , "The Smallsword in England" (1945), as the use of silver in smallswords was of course prevalent. As he quotes on p.65;

"...a silver sword? Well! thou shalt have that too! Now hast thou everything!".
- Vanbrugh, 1705

.....with this noting the extreme importance, and legacy, of the silver hilted sword to the gentry of these times.
It is noted also on this page, corroboration of your notes on the meaning of the grouping of marks, typically four, as found on London weapons of early 18th century.
1. leopards head, mark of assay at Goldsmiths Hall.
2. Makers mark...his initials (both)..as beginning c.1739
3. Date letter, each marked consecutively indicating a fiscal year, from
alphabets in various types, omitting letters J,W,X,Y,Z
4.Standard mark, always lion passant except between 1697-1720 when alteration of silver standard caused use of Britannia figure.

Apparantly there was a duty on silver, and the assay marks had to do with this, in cases where no 'touchmarks' (touchmark= hallmark, thus the function of goldsmiths hall etc.).
It seems that strictly speaking, every separate silver component should have been so marked, however in practice punches only appear in one location. In the early dates, stamps were often placed in the upper knuckleguard, but due to fragility of this spot, the concussion of heavy stamping blows caused weakening.
In note toward this fact, the fragility of silver hilts caused considerable concerns as these were extremely susceptible to damage and defacement, thus more of a dress accoutrement. This is noted by Aylward, and the source for my thoughts concerning the probable appointment of this sabre as a dress piece discussed earlier in the thread.

I think you have hit on the most likely means of identifying more on Norman's silver hilt sabre, and with your thoughts, it seems this information from Aylward provides some good support.

Your radar is definitely on high definition my friend!!!

All the best,
Jim

Norman McCormick · 5th March 2009, 07:24 PM

Hi Guys,
I'm betting the other marks, date, assay and place, as I proposed earlier, are hidden under the base of the hilt, to access this means dismounting the blade MMMMM????? Thoughts????????? My trip to Bonhams later on this month may elicit the makers name and the years which they were active, this info may have to be as near as I can get without the aforesaid dismounting. Will have to wait and see, will keep you posted.
My Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 6th March 2009, 08:07 PM

Hi,
After consulting with the Curator of European Edged Weapons at the Royal Armouries in Leeds he confirmed what I already surmised i.e. to dismount this sword to determine precisely actual age and place of manufacture would compromise the historical integrity of the piece. I will, as I said, take the sword to a silver expert in the hope that he/she will at least be able to identify the manufacturer of the silver mounts and that may give a smaller time frame within which I can place the sword. This style of sword did not last for very long so it is not as if we could be a century or so out. It is unfortunate, with British silver being so accurately marked, that the answers are so near and yet so far.

Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 6th March 2009, 08:30 PM

I heartily concur with what the curator has said, and altogether too often extremely valuable weapons are compromised by even the most earnest efforts in cleaning, identifying with necessary dismantling.

I think I would rely on the mark visible and try to compare it with known silversmiths engaged in weapons component fabricating. Since we know this sword would have dated within the approximate 1760-80 period, I think the focus there and perhaps finding other similar examples would be conceivable. By about 1780, there was considerable attention toward other hilt forms and neoclassic styling as far as I can see, and these 'lionheads' were somewhat becoming military fashion's old news. That assessment may surely be called into question with the inevitable exceptions, but I am noting from the broader sense.

I think the 'London silver hilt swords' book by Leslie Southwick (which I unfortunately do not have with me) and the book "The American Sword" by Harold Peterson, would both be excellent resources, and would give you sound clues. The Peterson book is actually comprised of two books combined, one of which is on silver hilted swords. Another good reference on lionhead swords of the period is by the late Andrew Mowbray, and he was a most astute collector and scholar of these weapons.

As I noted, I checked "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" by Neumann, but did not find anything with key associations or importance to add to this, other than the images of the earlier German hanger forms with these pommels.

All best regards,
Jim

4th March 2009, 06:40 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Hi Norman, The reason I was suggesting dress sabre was simply due to the nature of the hilt components. Ivory and silver would tend to add to the fragility of the hilt, and seem to defer from combat choice. However, that is not to say an officer would not take it on campaign, as it is certainly still effective as a weapon, regardless of being more highly prone to damage. Officers as previously mentioned, were highly inclined to flamboyance, so I suppose how to properly classify this sabre would be subjective. The stamped marking in the hilt I would consider a hallmark, as typically hilts were not marked by makers, and virtually all silverwork items required being hallmarked. The exception I can think of pertaining to makers stamping names into hilts, ironically was on a brass lionhead, ivory grip and gadrooned example quite similar to this. In cartouche on the hilt in somewhat similar location was the name READ. This was John Read, Birmingham from what I can recall (its been quite a few years). The blade was the straight, long cavalry blade of c.1770's. I really look forward to what the silver experts will say. The great thing about hallmarks is they were so stringently regulated and catalogued. The title by Leslie Southwick may have those pertaining to weapon makers, but I cant recall. All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 4th March 2009 at 07:17 PM.

3rd March 2009, 11:22 AM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,618	Hi Jim, Didn't realise it was used as a dress item only. Am not sure what you mean by the advice re the hallmarks, there are no visible hallmarks that I can see only a makers mark, that's not to say there not there and I'm just missing them, but I think any hallmarks are being obscured by the hilt where it meets the guard it would be great if they were visible two minutes and I would have a date. Bonhams are having a 'Silver Day' in Glasgow on the 24th of this month I will take it along and see what an expert on 18th Cent silver can tell me. My Regards, Norman.

5th March 2009, 06:05 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Hi Fernando, Extremely well placed points! and your summation of them present your ideas in a compellingly plausible manner. I understand that in these times, as noted, these hilt components, in particular the pommels, were often stockpiled by makers. In following your lead in this outstanding material on the identification and purposes of these stamped markings, I thought to look into the venerable reference by J.D.Aylward , "The Smallsword in England" (1945), as the use of silver in smallswords was of course prevalent. As he quotes on p.65; "...a silver sword? Well! thou shalt have that too! Now hast thou everything!". - Vanbrugh, 1705 .....with this noting the extreme importance, and legacy, of the silver hilted sword to the gentry of these times. It is noted also on this page, corroboration of your notes on the meaning of the grouping of marks, typically four, as found on London weapons of early 18th century. 1. leopards head, mark of assay at Goldsmiths Hall. 2. Makers mark...his initials (both)..as beginning c.1739 3. Date letter, each marked consecutively indicating a fiscal year, from alphabets in various types, omitting letters J,W,X,Y,Z 4.Standard mark, always lion passant except between 1697-1720 when alteration of silver standard caused use of Britannia figure. Apparantly there was a duty on silver, and the assay marks had to do with this, in cases where no 'touchmarks' (touchmark= hallmark, thus the function of goldsmiths hall etc.). It seems that strictly speaking, every separate silver component should have been so marked, however in practice punches only appear in one location. In the early dates, stamps were often placed in the upper knuckleguard, but due to fragility of this spot, the concussion of heavy stamping blows caused weakening. In note toward this fact, the fragility of silver hilts caused considerable concerns as these were extremely susceptible to damage and defacement, thus more of a dress accoutrement. This is noted by Aylward, and the source for my thoughts concerning the probable appointment of this sabre as a dress piece discussed earlier in the thread. I think you have hit on the most likely means of identifying more on Norman's silver hilt sabre, and with your thoughts, it seems this information from Aylward provides some good support. Your radar is definitely on high definition my friend!!! All the best, Jim

5th March 2009, 07:24 PM	#5
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,618	Hi Guys, I'm betting the other marks, date, assay and place, as I proposed earlier, are hidden under the base of the hilt, to access this means dismounting the blade MMMMM????? Thoughts????????? My trip to Bonhams later on this month may elicit the makers name and the years which they were active, this info may have to be as near as I can get without the aforesaid dismounting. Will have to wait and see, will keep you posted. My Regards, Norman.

6th March 2009, 08:07 PM	#6
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,618	Hi, After consulting with the Curator of European Edged Weapons at the Royal Armouries in Leeds he confirmed what I already surmised i.e. to dismount this sword to determine precisely actual age and place of manufacture would compromise the historical integrity of the piece. I will, as I said, take the sword to a silver expert in the hope that he/she will at least be able to identify the manufacturer of the silver mounts and that may give a smaller time frame within which I can place the sword. This style of sword did not last for very long so it is not as if we could be a century or so out. It is unfortunate, with British silver being so accurately marked, that the answers are so near and yet so far. Regards, Norman.

6th March 2009, 08:30 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	I heartily concur with what the curator has said, and altogether too often extremely valuable weapons are compromised by even the most earnest efforts in cleaning, identifying with necessary dismantling. I think I would rely on the mark visible and try to compare it with known silversmiths engaged in weapons component fabricating. Since we know this sword would have dated within the approximate 1760-80 period, I think the focus there and perhaps finding other similar examples would be conceivable. By about 1780, there was considerable attention toward other hilt forms and neoclassic styling as far as I can see, and these 'lionheads' were somewhat becoming military fashion's old news. That assessment may surely be called into question with the inevitable exceptions, but I am noting from the broader sense. I think the 'London silver hilt swords' book by Leslie Southwick (which I unfortunately do not have with me) and the book "The American Sword" by Harold Peterson, would both be excellent resources, and would give you sound clues. The Peterson book is actually comprised of two books combined, one of which is on silver hilted swords. Another good reference on lionhead swords of the period is by the late Andrew Mowbray, and he was a most astute collector and scholar of these weapons. As I noted, I checked "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" by Neumann, but did not find anything with key associations or importance to add to this, other than the images of the earlier German hanger forms with these pommels. All best regards, Jim