Soul of the Keris

[Pusaka]

Anyone here purchased this dvd on keris fighting methods?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNG2PN_q8Qc

Ni Luh Putu shares some keris fighting methods from Silat Bali (Bakti Negara)

Anyone here practice with keris?

[David]

Well, i don't think i would purchase this DVD based solely on this promotional video. Have you seen the whole thing?
I do practice with my keris, but not in a true to form silat manner as i have no training. Not much of that going on in my area. I do find, however that the keris does seem to "instruct" the user at times.

[Pusaka]

Hi David Yes some of the movements in the promotional video are not realistic, I have purchased the dvd though as I got it cheap, hoping there is something worth watching in it

In the video Ni Luh Putu blocks a staff strike with the handle of a keris, that must be one sturdy handle! Most keris if you hit them with force either to the handle or sheath would result in considerable damage.

The Keris is mainly an esoteric weapon but it can and has been used in a physical way also. Its not the best weapon for physical protection but maybe as a alternative.

[PenangsangII]

actually, keris is one of the best "self defense" weapons (physically speaking) - if you know how to use it effectively.

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

actually, keris is one of the best "self defense" weapons (physically speaking) - if you know how to use it effectively.

You would be happy to fight me with your keris if I had a sword, who would have the advantage?

[Lew]

Some how I would prefer a parang or klewang in a fight. Keris are really only stabbing weapons and stabbing alone has many drawbacks in a duel against a longer heavier sword or in a malay involving multipule opponents with longer slashing weapons

Lew

[Jussi M.]

Thanks,

J.

[kronckew]

video version of previous:

Linky


classic serendipity

spielberg said harrison had the runs that day & the longer sword vs. whip scene was cut, saved spielberg 300,000$ and 3 days of shooting too

[Pusaka]

A keris is good for defence against a person who also has a keris/knife or is unarmed. If someone has a staff, sword or any heavier weapon your in trouble because you cant block a strike with your keris. If I took a swipe at you with a sword or staff and you tried to block it with your keris it would fly out of your hand. The only way you could win with your keris would be if you were at a much higher level of ability.

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

A keris is good for defence against a person who also has a keris/knife or is unarmed. If someone has a staff, sword or any heavier weapon your in trouble because you cant block a strike with your keris. If I took a swipe at you with a sword or staff and you tried to block it with your keris it would fly out of your hand. The only way you could win with your keris would be if you were at a much higher level of ability.

Yes Pusaka, and as Jussi has pointed out, if someone has a gun your sword or staff is useless. I fail to see the point of this line of discussion.

[Lew]

David

That really depends on how close the guy with gun is standing away from you. A very skilled and fast knife fighter can be quite deadly within 2-3ft. Especially if the gunmen does not see the knife. Years ago the NYC transit police found a gunmen minus one hand which was still holding on to the gun. Seems he was in the middle of a robbery on the train when some guy standing off to the side whipped out a 10" custom forged Bowie knife and severed his gun hand with one swipe. The police arrested both of them. Later one of the police ordered a bowie from the same maker True story

Lew

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQE4f...eature=related

[PenangsangII]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

You would be happy to fight me with your keris if I had a sword, who would have the advantage?

Yes, I would be glad to..... in the confined space of my apartment......

You are also talking about the "soul" of keris..... if it means anything to you, will render your sword, golok or even guns useless....

Well, they wont simply invented keris as a weapon for nothing

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

David

That really depends on how close the guy with gun is standing away from you. A very skilled and fast knife fighter can be quite deadly within 2-3ft. Especially if the gunmen does not see the knife. Years ago the NYC transit police found a gunmen minus one hand which was still holding on to the gun. Seems he was in the middle of a robbey on the train when some guy standing off to the side whipped out a 10" custom forged Bowie knife and severed his gun hand with one swipe. The police arrested both of them. Later one of the police ordered a bowie from the same maker True story

Lew

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQE4f...eature=related

If That happened in the UK the gunman would get compensation and the guy who tried to defend himself would probably get locked up

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

You are also talking about the "soul" of keris..... if it means anything to you, will render your sword, golok or even guns useless....

Well, they wont simply invented keris as a weapon for nothing

Yes that's why I very carefully said " as a physical weapon", I know you can use the Ilmu (knowledge of the eight points)

[David]

Yes, the element of surprise is always a factor, but that is pretty self-evident, isn't it? As is the skill level of the practitioner. So i guess i still don't really see the point of discussing how well a keris would do against a pedang or staff...or a gun, nor do i see it's relavence to the topic, Soul of the Keris.

[Jussi M.]

Keris 1, French and British nuclear subs 0




Thanks,

J

[Jussi M.]

Keris 1, Mike Tyson 0



Thanks,

J

[Pusaka]

That's one foxy lady

Well the Soul of Keris is the name of the Keris fighting dvd, which strangely enough is about keris fighting. I was talking about keris fighting also so it is relevant. To say keris fighting is not relevant to the keris is like saying sword fighting has nothing to do with swords.

I dont think PenangsangII was talking about the element of surprise, I understood that he was talking about Ilmu which is the esoteric use of the keris in combat.

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

That's one foxy lady

Well the Soul of Keris is the name of the Keris fighting dvd, which strangely enough is about keris fighting. I was talking about keris fighting also so it is relevant. To say keris fighting is not relevant to the keris is like saying sword fighting has nothing to do with swords.

I dont think PenangsangII was talking about the element of surprise, I understood that he was talking about Ilmu which is the esoteric use of the keris in combat.

Oh, i see. I guess i didn't pay attention to the name of the video.I don't think anyone would say that keris fighting wasn't relevant to the keris.
Regardless, in our discussions of keris fighting it still seems rather pointless to compare keris to weapons of war. A keris would never be considered a first choice for the battlefield. It is a personal sidearm. In the day-to-day life of indonesians of yesteryear i would image that in self-defense it would be very likely that keris would end up matched against keris anyway. In such situations it it is a fine weapon of self defense.
I was responding to Lew's story about the NYC subway in regards to the element of surprise.

[Pusaka]

As a weapon I think the design of the keris sajen is better. The handle being forged from iron and being one with the blade seams a much sturdier design, I wonder why later keris did not develop the design further?

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

As a weapon I think the design of the keris sajen is better. The handle being forged from iron and being one with the blade seams a much sturdier design, I wonder why later keris did not develop the design further?

Yes, but generally weren't the hilts on keris meant for fighting fixed to the pesi with resin?

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by David

Yes, but generally weren't the hilts on keris meant for fighting fixed to the pesi with resin?

Yes I heard resin and hair/string? I actually have never seen a keris with resin fixing the handle to the pesi. Even if this was done the pesi is a point of weakness as its such a thin bit of metal, a solid metal handle would be better I would think.

If I were to make a few changes to the keris I would make perhaps three. I would forge the handle and blade as one, serrate the blade so it would be better for slashing and change the shape of the gadjah to a small hook so it can slash like a miniature krembit.

[PenangsangII]

sorry, a little bit off track..... keris is first & foremost a weapon. I think a lot of people agreed with this fact in some of the old threads. When i talked about "self defense" surely it meant keris wasnt the 1st choice weapon in war.

Regarding the esoteric value in a keris for fighting, yes the "isian" may help it's owner somewhat, but the decisive factor still rests with the owner.

I'm not sure where you come from Pusaka, but I live within the keris culture, Malay peninsula, sumatra & Bugis keris culture..... keris is still regarded as "king of weapon" in this part of the world.

I dont know where you get the idea of my having "8 points ilmu" which coincidently resembling a a keris combat philosophy in the silat i practise called "lapan penjuru angin bermata satu". Do I know you?

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

If I were to make a few changes to the keris I would make perhaps three. I would forge the handle and blade as one, serrate the blade so it would be better for slashing and change the shape of the gadjah to a small hook so it can slash like a miniature krembit.

hmmm....my guess is that it would no longer be a keris then.
Personally i wouldn't change a thing.

[Pusaka]

PenangsangII, To my knowledge I dont think we know each other.
Some very rare keris are said to have powerful isi, but even then the isi is a part of the owner or maker of the keris.
I however was not talking about the action of the isi when the keris is pointed at an attacker, rather I was talking about the action of the owner to defend himself with the knowledge of the keris and its relation to the eight point jurus attacks ie keris used to defend without contact (I cant say anything more on this).

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by David

hmmm....my guess is that it would no longer be a keris then.
Personally i wouldn't change a thing.

A Keris Sajen has a iron handle incorporated with the blade and is considered a keris, basically it would be the same only that small serrations would be added to the luk. This was done in some Indian curved blade knives to improve slashing.

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

A Keris Sajen has a iron handle incorporated with the blade and is considered a keris, basically it would be the same only that small serrations would be added to the luk. This was done in some Indian curved blade knives to improve slashing.

I was more referring to serrating the edge and changing the gonjo. Personally i find perfection in the keris as is and know that it is not my place to redesign a weapon that has existed pretty much in the same form for close to a millennium.

[Rick]

A few years of ritual washing will give all the serrated edge you need ..

[Lew]

The bottom line on keris is if you are carrying one in the royal court or in the street and someone attacks you with a similar size weapon than yes the keris can be used in self defense. I absolutely would not use a keris in a battle field situation as a primary weapon.



Lew