A Fine and Very Rare South German Landsknecht Saber, ca. 1540

Matchlock · 13th February 2009, 06:05 PM

More Katzbalgers.

broadaxe · 13th February 2009, 07:06 PM

Highly interesting saber, a longer brother of the German Dussak / Sinclair saber.
I've seen such decorations usualy on axe heads from the Germanic region, occasionaly on different bladed tools, even on anvils (rare).

Matchlock · 13th February 2009, 08:49 PM

That's perfectly right, broadaxe,

These are traditional decorative patterns common to plain iron work from the 16th to the 19th century.

Michael

Jim McDougall · 13th February 2009, 11:59 PM

Hi Michael,
It seems that semantics and transliteration is so often confounding in weapons study, much as in probably any focused study in detail. With this vary interesting geometric pattern, I wanted to be sure I wasn't misunderstanding the term for lozenge. As I noted with the bizarre entry for diamond shape that came up in Wagner, one can never be sure exactly what parlance is intended.

Thank you for the note on the katzbalgar term, and that is right that the traditional form was a simple figure eight of writhen iron for the guard. It does seem that these began developing more complex guards gradually with the simple knucklebow, as seen on the examples you kindly added. I must say the incredible photos you continually add are wonderfully fantastic, and its like having the most complete arms library right here in our threads.

I'm not sure whether these swords with more complex basket type hilts would still be termed katzbalgars, though they were still used by Landsknechts in the same capacity in close quarters fighting...but it seems there are so many forms that seem to have developed outside thier defined classification.

Ironically, it seems the 'landsknecht' term itself is often misconstrued, and was coined in about 1480 by Peter von Haganbach to refer to lowland soldiers of the Holy Roman Empire as opposed to the mercenaries of Switzerland. In time, it seems the term became more associated with the Swiss mercenary group in many cases.

The thing they seem to have had in common is the outlandish and garish costume, with loud colors, slashed and patched garments, parti colored hose and in degree, the stripes and harlequin patterns. Interestingly this was another form of psychological warfare as such bizarre appearance must have been greatly disconcerting, much as the same effect used by so many other cultures' warriors.

While I have yet to find distinct magical association with this most unusual pattern of 'connect the dots' on this blade, it is well known that geometrics are an age old device for such esoterica as well as even religious and talismanic symbolism. Without going into the complexities, it is known that there are key associations between art, music, mathematics and architecture. The application of numerics in talismanic and religious symbolism on sword blades can be seen in many examples, but this distinct motif reflecting geometric design with such deliberate intent is what is most unusual.
As you have noted, these styled geometric motifs and the wavy lines etc. are of course seen on firearms, and on many weapon forms as well.

We know that Landsknechts believed in certain superstitions, and whether any was intended in the costume, it seems that the pikes often had a foxes brush or animal tail attached to the top for protection in battle.

As always, more research to be done

All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 20th February 2009, 09:55 PM

Note: The previous post contained a link to a pending auction, so had to be deleted. The question in the post by Broadaxe was quite pertinant, and I will paraphrase as I could not delete only the link to the auction.

His comment was that 'katzbalger's were thought to only carry straight blades.
This is true, however as we have discussed, these sabre type weapons though similar, are only 'of the type' and were indeed carried by Landsknechts as variations of the original form. Terminology is often maddening when applied too arbitrarily with weapons and in many cases terms are widely and loosely used in descriptions.

We know that 'katzbalgers' were often reserviced and remounted with other blades, and it seems an example even with one of the early 'Ulfberht' type blades is known, remounted in its working life.

My apologies for the error in earlier closure of this thread, and I hope we can continue the discussion on the varying aspects of these interesting swords.

All best regards,
Jim

13th February 2009, 06:05 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	More Katzbalgers. Attached Images

13th February 2009, 11:59 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Hi Michael, It seems that semantics and transliteration is so often confounding in weapons study, much as in probably any focused study in detail. With this vary interesting geometric pattern, I wanted to be sure I wasn't misunderstanding the term for lozenge. As I noted with the bizarre entry for diamond shape that came up in Wagner, one can never be sure exactly what parlance is intended. Thank you for the note on the katzbalgar term, and that is right that the traditional form was a simple figure eight of writhen iron for the guard. It does seem that these began developing more complex guards gradually with the simple knucklebow, as seen on the examples you kindly added. I must say the incredible photos you continually add are wonderfully fantastic, and its like having the most complete arms library right here in our threads. I'm not sure whether these swords with more complex basket type hilts would still be termed katzbalgars, though they were still used by Landsknechts in the same capacity in close quarters fighting...but it seems there are so many forms that seem to have developed outside thier defined classification. Ironically, it seems the 'landsknecht' term itself is often misconstrued, and was coined in about 1480 by Peter von Haganbach to refer to lowland soldiers of the Holy Roman Empire as opposed to the mercenaries of Switzerland. In time, it seems the term became more associated with the Swiss mercenary group in many cases. The thing they seem to have had in common is the outlandish and garish costume, with loud colors, slashed and patched garments, parti colored hose and in degree, the stripes and harlequin patterns. Interestingly this was another form of psychological warfare as such bizarre appearance must have been greatly disconcerting, much as the same effect used by so many other cultures' warriors. While I have yet to find distinct magical association with this most unusual pattern of 'connect the dots' on this blade, it is well known that geometrics are an age old device for such esoterica as well as even religious and talismanic symbolism. Without going into the complexities, it is known that there are key associations between art, music, mathematics and architecture. The application of numerics in talismanic and religious symbolism on sword blades can be seen in many examples, but this distinct motif reflecting geometric design with such deliberate intent is what is most unusual. As you have noted, these styled geometric motifs and the wavy lines etc. are of course seen on firearms, and on many weapon forms as well. We know that Landsknechts believed in certain superstitions, and whether any was intended in the costume, it seems that the pikes often had a foxes brush or animal tail attached to the top for protection in battle. As always, more research to be done All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 14th February 2009 at 02:40 AM.

13th February 2009, 07:06 PM	#2
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 334	Highly interesting saber, a longer brother of the German Dussak / Sinclair saber. I've seen such decorations usualy on axe heads from the Germanic region, occasionaly on different bladed tools, even on anvils (rare).

13th February 2009, 08:49 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	That's perfectly right, broadaxe, These are traditional decorative patterns common to plain iron work from the 16th to the 19th century. Michael

20th February 2009, 09:55 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Note: The previous post contained a link to a pending auction, so had to be deleted. The question in the post by Broadaxe was quite pertinant, and I will paraphrase as I could not delete only the link to the auction. His comment was that 'katzbalger's were thought to only carry straight blades. This is true, however as we have discussed, these sabre type weapons though similar, are only 'of the type' and were indeed carried by Landsknechts as variations of the original form. Terminology is often maddening when applied too arbitrarily with weapons and in many cases terms are widely and loosely used in descriptions. We know that 'katzbalgers' were often reserviced and remounted with other blades, and it seems an example even with one of the early 'Ulfberht' type blades is known, remounted in its working life. My apologies for the error in earlier closure of this thread, and I hope we can continue the discussion on the varying aspects of these interesting swords. All best regards, Jim