Batak Book

kino · 8th February 2009, 07:29 AM

Being offered to me. Not an edged weapon, but could possibly cause damaged like hair and teeth falling out or something even worse.

A Batak shaman's book. Is it a repro. Never seen one before. Help please.

Spunjer · 8th February 2009, 07:46 AM

lol, that looks like my honey-do list..

sorry, i can't help it..

fearn · 8th February 2009, 08:01 AM

Hi Kino,

With the necessary disclaimer that I'm NOT an expert on Batak spirituality, this certainly looks like it contains some of the talismanic writings I would expect from Indonesia.

My general take on any "magical" item is that the most important thing is how it feels in your hand, if you get to handle it. Have this in your collection because you're comfortable with it, not because it's a rarity. A fake will feel dead, and if it feels bad or uncomfortable, you're probably not going to want to deal with owning it anyway, so why bother?

Good luck,

F

ronpakis · 8th February 2009, 03:06 PM

hello,

a couple of years ago i was on sumatra, lake toba. when you get out of the boat you can see hundreds of these books. different scales. some with lizzards etc. from 1 to XXX dollars or euros. antique ones, are extremely rare. probably only affordable for the rich. the dutch tropenmuseum has some nice examples. the most wellknown is the large example with a wooden sigha on top. seen in many batak books.

greetings ron

Nonoy Tan · 8th February 2009, 07:16 PM

Kino,

The name for this shaman's book is "Pustaha" which is written in old Batak script. You can find more about it in Google. I hope this helps.

Nonoy

Bill M · 9th February 2009, 03:30 PM

The writings look correct. The good writing characters are incredibly fine in execution. They can be tiny letters. Here you will see big differences in the "modern."

Batak is a highly copied culture. Most of it Islam and Christian and the old shaman ways fallen into disuse. This could be real, but I regard most items like this as curiosities unless a knowledgeable person has been able to hold it and offer an informed opinion.

Authentic Batak pieces are very rare and extremely expensive. Depending on price, I'd buy it for the artistic work. Looks nicely done. However I would ask for high rez pictures of the writing.

Interestingly enough a Google search of "Batak Religion" asks if I want to change "Batak" to our new president's last name. Guess it shows he is more popular than a North Sumatran culture.

kino · 9th February 2009, 06:15 PM

Fearn, Thanks for the advice. It neither feels magical or dead in my hands,
maybe I'm not just tuned in.

Ronpakis, The seller told me it was collected in Lake Toba in the 70's.

Nonoy, The writing is a little similar to alibata.

Bill, I've handled it and it seems right, but I'm not a knowledgeable one.

It's printed on bark, and feels delicate. I don't know the age of it other than
when it was collected in the field. It could be an authentic shamans book but not so old as the one's in the museums. After giving it much thought, I will pass on it and save my meager allowance for a Kamp or something.

Spunjer, you better get busy on the wifey's "do list"

Thanks all.

Nonoy Tan · 10th February 2009, 09:00 AM

Albert,

Some scholars believe that the ancient scripts used in the Philippines and Batak have a common ancestry (Brahmi alphabet) , so as do all Indic and southeast Asian writings. It would be interesting to observe if our Tagbanwa and Hanunoo Mangyan brothers can recognize this script.

Nonoy

Bill M · 11th February 2009, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nonoy Tan

Albert,

Some scholars believe that the ancient scripts used in the Philippines and Batak have a common ancestry (Brahmi alphabet) , so as do all Indic and southeast Asian writings. It would be interesting to observe if our Tagbanwa and Hanunoo Mangyan brothers can recognize this script.

Nonoy

Nonoy,

I believe that you are correct here. I noticed that the script on one of the Ifugao walking canes from the Northern Luzon Cordillera I just got from you looks very much like Batak.

Nonoy Tan · 11th February 2009, 06:11 PM

Hi Bill,

I am glad that you like the walking cane. Apparently, a lot of time was devoted by the maker to incise those intricate designs onto the cane's surface. It is one of a kind and I have not seen anything like it. It is truly a work of art.

As far as I know those marks are designs not writings. Such designs were also present as tattoos among warriors of the northern Luzon cordillera, particularly those who have taken enemy heads. Also, these peoples do not appear to have had a writing culture, but rather oral traditions (chants, songs, prayers) passed on from one generation to the next.

On the other hand, many Philippine peoples such as the Tagalog, Visayan, Ilokano, etc. were using the ancient script until the introduction of the latin-based writing by Spain. The ancient script died a natural death, with the exception of the Hanunoo Mangyan (Mindoro Island) and Tagbanwa (Palawan) script which survives to the present day.

Nonoy

Spunjer · 11th February 2009, 06:43 PM

...it does have a strong resemblance to Baybayin, but another script that could be compared it to would be Jawi.
incidentally, this form of writing has been utilized from way back when, evident of this ancient manuscript, known as the Laguna Copperplate, dated A.D. 900:

David · 11th February 2009, 06:53 PM

Frankly it looks just a bit too clean, as in never used, to me. Makes me suspicious. Still an interesting item if not too expensive.

Norman McCormick · 11th February 2009, 07:07 PM

Hi Guys,
While you're on the subject of scripts, I wonder if any of you recognise this form of writing, I thought it looked as if it could have a connection with the Brahmi script. Have attached two photographs as I do not know which is the correct way up. Many thanks.
Regards,
Norman.

kino · 12th February 2009, 02:17 PM

I came across some articles stating that the script on the "Pustaha" , was called Kawi.

Norman,
Care to share photos of your item with the writing on it?

Norman McCormick · 12th February 2009, 07:23 PM

Hi Kino,
Photo as per request, if you search on the forum for a 'Tulwar Inscription' thread started by me there are more images there. The results of that thread were inconclusive as to a translation and I was hoping to reach a wider audience via this thread as it mentioned the 'Brahmi' script and associated languages which was a possibility I had investigated subsequently although without success.
Thanks for looking.
My Regards,
Norman.

8th February 2009, 07:29 AM	#1
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,002	Batak Book Being offered to me. Not an edged weapon, but could possibly cause damaged like hair and teeth falling out or something even worse. A Batak shaman's book. Is it a repro. Never seen one before. Help please. Attached Images

8th February 2009, 03:06 PM	#4
ronpakis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: netherlands Posts: 75	batak shaman books hello, a couple of years ago i was on sumatra, lake toba. when you get out of the boat you can see hundreds of these books. different scales. some with lizzards etc. from 1 to XXX dollars or euros. antique ones, are extremely rare. probably only affordable for the rich. the dutch tropenmuseum has some nice examples. the most wellknown is the large example with a wooden sigha on top. seen in many batak books. greetings ron

11th February 2009, 07:07 PM	#13
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi Guys, While you're on the subject of scripts, I wonder if any of you recognise this form of writing, I thought it looked as if it could have a connection with the Brahmi script. Have attached two photographs as I do not know which is the correct way up. Many thanks. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

12th February 2009, 07:23 PM	#15
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi Kino, Photo as per request, if you search on the forum for a 'Tulwar Inscription' thread started by me there are more images there. The results of that thread were inconclusive as to a translation and I was hoping to reach a wider audience via this thread as it mentioned the 'Brahmi' script and associated languages which was a possibility I had investigated subsequently although without success. Thanks for looking. My Regards, Norman. Attached Images

8th February 2009, 07:46 AM	#2
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	lol, that looks like my honey-do list.. sorry, i can't help it..

8th February 2009, 08:01 AM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Kino, With the necessary disclaimer that I'm NOT an expert on Batak spirituality, this certainly looks like it contains some of the talismanic writings I would expect from Indonesia. My general take on any "magical" item is that the most important thing is how it feels in your hand, if you get to handle it. Have this in your collection because you're comfortable with it, not because it's a rarity. A fake will feel dead, and if it feels bad or uncomfortable, you're probably not going to want to deal with owning it anyway, so why bother? Good luck, F

8th February 2009, 07:16 PM	#5
Nonoy Tan Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 293	Kino, The name for this shaman's book is "Pustaha" which is written in old Batak script. You can find more about it in Google. I hope this helps. Nonoy

9th February 2009, 03:30 PM	#6
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	The writings look correct. The good writing characters are incredibly fine in execution. They can be tiny letters. Here you will see big differences in the "modern." Batak is a highly copied culture. Most of it Islam and Christian and the old shaman ways fallen into disuse. This could be real, but I regard most items like this as curiosities unless a knowledgeable person has been able to hold it and offer an informed opinion. Authentic Batak pieces are very rare and extremely expensive. Depending on price, I'd buy it for the artistic work. Looks nicely done. However I would ask for high rez pictures of the writing. Interestingly enough a Google search of "Batak Religion" asks if I want to change "Batak" to our new president's last name. Guess it shows he is more popular than a North Sumatran culture.

9th February 2009, 06:15 PM	#7
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,002	Fearn, Thanks for the advice. It neither feels magical or dead in my hands, maybe I'm not just tuned in. Ronpakis, The seller told me it was collected in Lake Toba in the 70's. Nonoy, The writing is a little similar to alibata. Bill, I've handled it and it seems right, but I'm not a knowledgeable one. It's printed on bark, and feels delicate. I don't know the age of it other than when it was collected in the field. It could be an authentic shamans book but not so old as the one's in the museums. After giving it much thought, I will pass on it and save my meager allowance for a Kamp or something. Spunjer, you better get busy on the wifey's "do list" Thanks all.

10th February 2009, 09:00 AM	#8
Nonoy Tan Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 293	Albert, Some scholars believe that the ancient scripts used in the Philippines and Batak have a common ancestry (Brahmi alphabet) , so as do all Indic and southeast Asian writings. It would be interesting to observe if our Tagbanwa and Hanunoo Mangyan brothers can recognize this script. Nonoy

11th February 2009, 06:11 PM	#10
Nonoy Tan Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 293	Hi Bill, I am glad that you like the walking cane. Apparently, a lot of time was devoted by the maker to incise those intricate designs onto the cane's surface. It is one of a kind and I have not seen anything like it. It is truly a work of art. As far as I know those marks are designs not writings. Such designs were also present as tattoos among warriors of the northern Luzon cordillera, particularly those who have taken enemy heads. Also, these peoples do not appear to have had a writing culture, but rather oral traditions (chants, songs, prayers) passed on from one generation to the next. On the other hand, many Philippine peoples such as the Tagalog, Visayan, Ilokano, etc. were using the ancient script until the introduction of the latin-based writing by Spain. The ancient script died a natural death, with the exception of the Hanunoo Mangyan (Mindoro Island) and Tagbanwa (Palawan) script which survives to the present day. Nonoy

11th February 2009, 06:43 PM	#11
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	...it does have a strong resemblance to Baybayin, but another script that could be compared it to would be Jawi. incidentally, this form of writing has been utilized from way back when, evident of this ancient manuscript, known as the Laguna Copperplate, dated A.D. 900:

11th February 2009, 06:53 PM	#12
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,125	Frankly it looks just a bit too clean, as in never used, to me. Makes me suspicious. Still an interesting item if not too expensive.

12th February 2009, 02:17 PM	#14
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,002	I came across some articles stating that the script on the "Pustaha" , was called Kawi. Norman, Care to share photos of your item with the writing on it?