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10th February 2009, 11:49 PM
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#1 |
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Nothern Mexico
Posts: 458
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Jim, I am under the impression that the naming of swords was also used by the europeans, but I am unable to ensure it comes from an islamic influence. The name "Tizona", as you noted, could mean a burning coal stick, and it could poetically designate something like a terrible burning sword. Tizón is the part of a branch burnt to the point of an ardent coal. It has another meanings, but not appliable. I wouldn´t use it as a reference to a forged vs a casted sword, as the word has no metallurgical implications in castilian languaje (several other languajes were spoken on the teritory of actual Spain, and I think Celtan speaks one of them, which is more near to the portuguese than to the castilian).
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11th February 2009, 05:05 PM
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#2 |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,191
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The naming of swords seems to have been a practice of the times in general, and the references were with regard to what seems to have been the source of the names applied. With the European swords, it seems that the practice was known among the Vikings (N.Europe) in the sense that they often used heroic or powerful names and phrases to refer to not only thier swords, but axes and other arms as well. The totemic associations taken by warriors seem to have in some degree come into the equation, as with the berserks (bears etc.) but what is most interesting, and does seem to be somewhat in accord with what I was suggesting with the Islamic swords, are references to dragons or snakes as pertaining to the Viking swords.
As described by Oakeshott in his venerable "The Archaeology of Weapons" the snake allegory refers to the imagery of the pattern welded blades, whose patterning from the manner in which they are forged recalls the skin of the snake, also wonderfully described by Dr.Lee Jones in his "The Serpent in the Blade". Here, once again, are references to metallurgic characteristics used in reference to swords, whether in naming them, or in describing them. This artful and poetic analogy often lent well to the romantic literature that became popularly known, and has come through the ages in classic literature. Perhaps, as I was noting earlier, the names of Tizona and Colada, may have been loosely applied to contemporary swords referring to the style in which the blade was made, or again, where it was made. It seems that I have seen references that refer to 'the tizona' or 'the colada' , which suggest possibly a descriptive term rather than specifically a singular entity. The tizona term, as noted, has varying reference to burned wood, etc. and also of course might have been applied artistically as in 'the flaming sword'. The colada term apparantly has numerous connotations but the two I found both applied to metallurgic characteristics. I am not sure whether these clearly different terms might have been used to define blades manufactured differently, but the possibility seems worthy of consideration. Naturally semantics, varying dialects and archaic application might all be conflicting in trying to determine how this may have been intended. It does remain interesting that the interpretation of the names does suggest some possibility that these were descriptive terms rather than names for specific swords, which would still help in better understanding the references to them in the literature. I think this is important in evaluating the cases for the existing swords representing these extremely important artifacts. Excellent observations Gonzalo!! I am really intrigued by this topic, and its great to have you join me in discussing this. All the best, Jim |
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12th February 2009, 12:27 AM
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#3 |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
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Swords baptism - a fashion from the period.
I know this is not news, neither it will "heat or cool" the situation, but i would like to mention it, if you don't mind.
In a precious old book that i am lucky to have  ,dedicated to the edged weapons collection of the Viscount of Pindela, the introduction covers the evolution of the Portuguese (Peninsular) sword. At the X century stage, the author (Alfredo Guimarães) reminds us the general form of the cross (guard) that swords were developing since the carolingian cicle, enlarging and later stabilizing, giving symbolic character to the insignia of western christian knights and promoting, in a significant manner, their baptism (1). In a footnote: (1) " El nombre que se daba a la espada en el bautismo, lo guardaba toda la vida. La de Carlomagno se llamaba Joyeuse, la de Roldan, Aurandal, la de Renato, Flambaut, la de Oliveros, Haute claire, la que el Cid conquistó alo rey moro de Valencia se llamaba Tizona, y la que obtuvo del Conde de Barcelona, Collada. Asi eran particularisadas" -Pompeyo Gener (Pompeyo Gener seems to be a Spanish authority in edged weapons) Need translation, Jim? If so, just tell. Fernando |
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12th February 2009, 01:51 AM
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#4 |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,191
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There you are Fernando!!!
You seem to have a lot of 'precious old books'!! and as I have always said, they are goldmines of esoterica and important references concerning these weapons typically not found in the more readily available corpus of arms books. Yes, by all means, your translation of that note, puulleeze!!  All the best, Jim |
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12th February 2009, 05:32 AM
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#5 |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
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The excerpts below from Spanish arms and armour, being a historical and descriptive account of the Royal Armoury of Madrid (1907) will be my humble
 contribution to this very interesting topic!What surprised me in browsing the said book is the dearth of info on the colada and the tizona. Perhaps somebody can tell us the 'inside story' there? By the way, thanks to Gonzalo for referring me to the LINK from where the book (45 mb) can be downloaded. What would I do without you guys?!
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12th February 2009, 01:51 PM
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#6 |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,191
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Hi Lorenz,
Its great to have you come in on this with us, and we have agreed, this does seem to be developing into just the intriguing discussion I hoped it would be. I'm glad you added the Calvert reference, as this has stood for some time as one of the few references to Spanish arms in English. Your mention of the dearth of reference to Tizona and Colada is something I also have thought extremely unusual in looking through this work, which is intended to focus on the importance of this collection and Spanish arms in general. While I could not think of any specific reason for the brief mention of these two most important weapons, it does seem that Mr. Calvert was amidst considerable sensitivity as he was a guest in this cataloguing and description. In the assistance provided to him by the Conde de Valencia de San Juan, some of the material discussed reflect the degree of concern toward the sword once thought to be Colada, now considered the Lobera of Ferdinand III. The sword next to it was noted as having been attributed to Roland erroneously, but now 'possibly' one of Ferdinands swords (G22). Tizona was mentioned, but at this point without going into greater detail, only suggesting the sword there was quite likely the true Tizona. I think that with weapons of this stature, Mr. Calvert wisely limited his review of them to the levels of information shared by the Conde, and avoided further speculation. Moving on, I think what is most interesting here are the entries on the G21 sword formerly thought to be Colada, and now believed to be the 'Lobera' of King Ferdinand III (King of Castile and Leon, reuniting them in 1231). It is noted by Calvert on p.32 (...how the name Lobera came to be applied to a sword is unknown). What is interesting to me is why the question about the Lobera name for a sword, and speculation about the name of a person reflected in memoirs . It seems worthy of note here that in this reference, the sword is referred to as a "lobera sword" and of its great virtue. Somehow there is key focus on the naming of this sword, yet the names of Tizona and Colada are not really reviewed here or it appears in any depth in other references I have seen. One thing I would offer here for consideration, is another reference in the Calvert text (also p.32) referring to the virtue of ones 'lobera' sword, in a seemingly more general reference. In looking into what I could find for translation of 'lobera' it seems that the term in variation refers to a wolf pack or wolves lair. While admittedly reaching at this point, I find it interesting that roughly in this period, the concept of using a wolf as a marking guaranteeing the quality of a blade was about to become a known practice. This would be in the established arms making location from earlier Roman Noricum that became Passau. In trying to locate a place name in Spain that would have the name Lobera, it seems that in Zaragoza there is a municipality named Lobera de Onsella. In later period the famed swordsmith Julian del Rey is said to have used the wolf marking, working in both Toledo and Zaragoza. While it is unclear whether the image used is actually a wolf, or possibly a lion, it has been generally held that it was a wolf (actually referred to as a perillo =dog). Clearly not connected directly to this case being discussed, it seems worthy of note that there could be a remote connection to wolf marking deriving from this earlier possibility. Perhaps the term 'lobera' was a colloquial metaphor for a sword or type of sword, much in the way the 'fox' became used by Shakespeares time to describe a sword. In this region of NE Spain, this had been colonized by the Romans, later the Islamic Taifa (Kingdom) of Saraqustah (Zaragoza) and c.1035 AD under Frankish fuedal fiefs. This is my admittedly limited understanding of the complexity of Spanish history, but the point I am hoping to make is that the name 'Lobera' for this sword, in my opinion is once again, a reference to where the sword was likely made. It would seem that this could be a place name, as in the one I found (I'm sure there are others) in which Zaragosa is of course known for sword making. It was well known as one of the campaign regions for Charlemagne (which brings up once again his paladin, Roland ) which makes it tempting to consider how the attribution for the G22 sword emerged. It would seem that in these times, a sword made in Zaragoza, with the earlier influences of not only the Frankish swords but Islamic makers, would be of the virtues (quality) expressly noted. How the lobera term becomes applied is at this point completely unclear, and again, what I have compiled is purely speculation. I have placed it here for the consideration and discussion of those of you who are without a doubt more advanced in Spanish history than I am, and very much look forward to your thoughts and observatiobs. All best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 12th February 2009 at 02:04 PM. |
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13th February 2009, 12:57 AM
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#7 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kent
Posts: 2,658
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Quote:
Mr Holmes would be proud  Best Regards David |
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14th February 2009, 11:32 AM
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#8 | |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
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Quote:
Yes indeed, a very interesting topic to say the least! While Googling for colada and tizona, I found this Wikipedia article on the List of magical weapons, which is mainly about swords. Here's an excerpt, and I highlighted the subject swords for easier browsing: I don't know whether it's fair to put the historical colada and tizona in the above quoted list, as most of the blades there are fictitious. Anyways, I just thought I'd throw in the above list for whatever it's worth!
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12th February 2009, 01:21 PM
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#9 | |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
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Let me try. Castillian speakers, don't hit me
 .Quote:
"The name given to a sword in its baptism, was kept for all life. That of Charlemagne was called Joyeuse, that of Roldan, Aurandal, that of Renato, Flambaut, that of Oliver (the Dane) Haute claire, the one that el Cid conquered from the moor King in Valencia was called Tizona, and the one that he obtained from the count of Barcelona, Collada. In this way they were particularised." As i said, nothing new, just a confirmation of what is vastly divulged. Fernando |
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12th February 2009, 02:43 PM
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#10 | |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,191
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Quote:
Thank you so much Fernando! Actually it is great to see this translated before me, as I have been here most of the night instead of sleeping...which was impossible with paladins charging back and forth in my head! I have been wading through this maddening sea of literary folklore for hours, and these sword names are really confused or confusing or both. Charlemagnes sword was indeed Joyeuse, and again it is described with what seems to derive from metallurgical metaphor...."...never was there a sword to match it, its color changed thirty times a day". Again, who has it? Some say it was buried with him, some say it was held at St.Denys Basilica then taken to the Louvre, some say it is in the Imperial Treasury at Vienna. But then, another of Charlemagnes sword was 'flamberge' or 'floberge' (=flame cutter), but noted that this 'name/term' was used for Rinaldo's and Maugis' swords also. In another note Rinaldo's sword is named Frusberta. (?) Hauteclere, the sword of Oliver, who was another of Charlemagnes paladins, along with Rinaldo, and of course Roland. The 'Dane' was known as 'Ogier the Dane' (Holger Danske) one of Charlemagnes vassals, and whose sword was Curtana......the name of course later applied to other swords. It is also noted that 'Courtain' (=short sword)was but one of Ogier's swords, the other was named 'Sauvigne'. Perhaps here again, like Tizona and Colada being single and two hand swords, these were types as well? Incidentally, inscribed on 'Curtana' it is inscribed on the blade: "...my name is Curtana, of the same steel and temper as Joyuese and Durandal". Which brings us to 'Durandal' which was the sword of Roland, as mentioned previously, but Charlemagnes 'right hand' paladin. This sword is afforded even more romantic allusion, and described as having previously been owned by Hector of Troy, and won from the giant Jutmundus. Added to this mythology for the blade, the hilt was said to have contained a thread from the cloak of the Virgin Mary; tooth of St. Peter; a hair of St. Denys and a drop of St. Basils blood. In battle when Roland was mortally wounded he desperately tried to break Durandal, but the sound sword would not break, so he 'threw it into a poisoned stream' so as not to fall into enemy hands. So there is the bedlam of my sleepless night, the naming of swords and thier allusions which are becoming my delusions!! All the best, Jim |
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