The Mystery of El Cid's Swords Tizona and Colada

Jim McDougall · 10th February 2009, 05:33 PM

Excellent Gonzalo! Beautiful dissertation, and exactly what I had hoped for, a direct rebuttal that does exactly what you noted, sticking to the facts. The material I presented was a compilation of excerpts from a wide range of resources, many of which clearly carry the 'spin' syndrome.
Considering the very nature of both of these swords, being represented as artifacts reverently associated with a virtual national treasure and heroic figure of this stature, the chances of 'clear title' and unbroken ownership is unlikely at best.

I think this is a subject encountered with most, if not virtually all, weapons of such monumental importance, in all cultures and in some cases, religions. We know that in the most classic case, there has been considerable and most troublesome issue concerning like analysis of the Swords of the Prophet Mohammed, which reside, again reverently, in a museum.
It would seem that they, like the swords of the Cid, were probably remounted in later times, much as many swords in use were, into styles more in fashion of newer times and done with great respect.

In many other instances, there are cases where the weapons once held by profound historical figures are sought after, or if in place, constantly scrutinized by historical revisionists. In cases where national pride or that of any elite institutions integrity is challenged or in any way threatened, of course there are sensitive issues.

The swords Tizona and Colada clearly fall into such category, and in the turbulence of history, of course changed hands numerous times. The reason I brought up the rather nebulous reference from the letters of an apparantly prominent figure of the 19th century, suggesting theft and switching of the sword, and the rather shameful 'deaccession' of the museums holdings after the fire was to emphasize such possibilities.

I think Gonzalo has presented some much more secure references documenting likely changes in the holding of these weapons, and reviewing these references will likely present more thorough likelihood of the validity of claims to authenticity. Actually, this is exactly what the museums should be doing, if they have not already done so.

I especially like the reference to the literal meaning of 'colada' and my efforts in discovering the translated meaning gave me 'strained' and of course enough silly references to the drink to give me call for a more stiff one!

I think it is great to see that in both cases, the exotic sounding names for these swords were directly inspired metallurgically, something else which seems to have escaped the copy writers discussing the legends of El Cid.

With Colada, the term 'cast', and I earlier noted, the acero colada process of producing pure alloyed steel, noted in the 17th century reference. It seems that Gonzalo has very nicely linked this supporting information and the fact that Barcelona, known for such metallurgical processes may have been the place where Colada was made. With the swords alleged provenance coming from a Barcelona noble, this does present good historical data, regardless of whether it applies directly to the actual sword representing Colada or not.

Returning to Tizona, the references to the literal meaning of the word; coal, burnt, burnt stick and firebrand, also present intriguing metallurgical reference suggesting the carburizing of steel. The 'damascus' term often seen applied in historical references is typically not to be taken literally, as it is often much too broadly used for serious reference. The term in this parlance can often mean anything from a well forged blade, to actual watered steel to even more remotely, a sword actually made in Damascus (unlikely as this had been more a trade center than manufacturing center since Tamerlane's time).
The interesting results of the scientific tests of the incumbent Tizona seem to be represented quite differently depending on who is recounting them. While one reference states the blade is in fact from 11th century, specifically Cordoba ; the other claims 14th to 15th century with no other specifics .
I wonder if the actual documentation of the tests are obtainable ?

In all, completely fascinating, and I hope worthy of more discussion from anyone who has serious interest in not only Spanish history, but in important historical weapons held in museums.

Thank you so much Gonzalo.

All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 10th February 2009, 11:02 PM

Just wanted to add more concerning the naming of Tizona and Colada:

"...swords were named after thier place of production, or at least supposed place of production. There were qala'i from a site in central Arabia or Iraq or Malaysia, Diyafi swords from Iraq, Baylamani from Baylaman which was either in Yemen or India and Mushrafi, from a site which was also either in Yemen or Syria. It is a curious characteristic of these names that the places are so uncertain , which suggests that even by the earliest Islamic times the names referred to types rather than places of production".
"The Armies of the Caliphs"
Hugh Kennedy, N.Y. 2001 p.173

With Islamic swords, they were of course held in the highest reverence, much the same as in European parlance from the swords of the Vikings into the age of chivalry. There was great attention put toward the steel in the blade and its forging, and the Arabs often used metaphoric and poetic descriptions, such as "...the sword drank the water" (op.cit. p.174) referring to the tempering. In the 9th century, al-Kindi, in his treatise on swords was particularly interested in the patterning in the steel in the blades, often using the term 'jauhar' (=jewel) in referencing watered steel.

After discovering the metallurgic nature seeming to be associated with the references to Tizona and Colada, it is interesting to consider the possibility that these name/terms might have been applied to more than these two swords alone. While the passage I have quoted clearly refers to the Islamic practice of naming swords, the culture in which El Cid lived and fought was in Moorish Spain, and the practice would seem to have been well in place. The references to the swords in later literary references to El Cid may well have reiterated the names or terms applied to his swords in earlier accounts.

Perhaps later references reflecting swords in inventories included swords called by the term (?) and not distinctly 'the' Tizona or 'Colada' (?)
I am only suggesting this as a possibility that should be considered in references to these resources, emphasizing this is only a thought.

In the study of often seen sword markings, it has been suggested that the 'makers' names inscribed or stamped in the blades such as 'ANDREA FERARA' or 'SAHAGUM' may well be brands or types of swords. This thought pertains to the superb marketing and commercialism of Solingen in using favored names of earlier makers to appeal to certain client groups. In earlier times, the Franks were also keenly aware of quality marking, and the famed and mysterious 'ULFBERHT' swords seem to have been marked in this sense as well.

Best regards,
Jim

Gonzalo G · 10th February 2009, 11:49 PM

Jim, I am under the impression that the naming of swords was also used by the europeans, but I am unable to ensure it comes from an islamic influence. The name "Tizona", as you noted, could mean a burning coal stick, and it could poetically designate something like a terrible burning sword. Tizón is the part of a branch burnt to the point of an ardent coal. It has another meanings, but not appliable. I wouldn´t use it as a reference to a forged vs a casted sword, as the word has no metallurgical implications in castilian languaje (several other languajes were spoken on the teritory of actual Spain, and I think Celtan speaks one of them, which is more near to the portuguese than to the castilian).

Jim McDougall · 11th February 2009, 05:05 PM

The naming of swords seems to have been a practice of the times in general, and the references were with regard to what seems to have been the source of the names applied. With the European swords, it seems that the practice was known among the Vikings (N.Europe) in the sense that they often used heroic or powerful names and phrases to refer to not only thier swords, but axes and other arms as well. The totemic associations taken by warriors seem to have in some degree come into the equation, as with the berserks (bears etc.) but what is most interesting, and does seem to be somewhat in accord with what I was suggesting with the Islamic swords, are references to dragons or snakes as pertaining to the Viking swords.
As described by Oakeshott in his venerable "The Archaeology of Weapons" the snake allegory refers to the imagery of the pattern welded blades, whose patterning from the manner in which they are forged recalls the skin of the snake, also wonderfully described by Dr.Lee Jones in his "The Serpent in the Blade".
Here, once again, are references to metallurgic characteristics used in reference to swords, whether in naming them, or in describing them.
This artful and poetic analogy often lent well to the romantic literature that became popularly known, and has come through the ages in classic literature.

Perhaps, as I was noting earlier, the names of Tizona and Colada, may have been loosely applied to contemporary swords referring to the style in which the blade was made, or again, where it was made. It seems that I have seen references that refer to 'the tizona' or 'the colada' , which suggest possibly a descriptive term rather than specifically a singular entity.

The tizona term, as noted, has varying reference to burned wood, etc. and also of course might have been applied artistically as in 'the flaming sword'.
The colada term apparantly has numerous connotations but the two I found both applied to metallurgic characteristics. I am not sure whether these clearly different terms might have been used to define blades manufactured differently, but the possibility seems worthy of consideration. Naturally semantics, varying dialects and archaic application might all be conflicting in trying to determine how this may have been intended.

It does remain interesting that the interpretation of the names does suggest some possibility that these were descriptive terms rather than names for specific swords, which would still help in better understanding the references to them in the literature. I think this is important in evaluating the cases for the existing swords representing these extremely important artifacts.

Excellent observations Gonzalo!! I am really intrigued by this topic, and its great to have you join me in discussing this.

All the best,
Jim

fernando · 12th February 2009, 12:27 AM

I know this is not news, neither it will "heat or cool" the situation, but i would like to mention it, if you don't mind.

In a precious old book that i am lucky to have

,dedicated to the edged weapons collection of the Viscount of Pindela, the introduction covers the evolution of the Portuguese (Peninsular) sword.
At the X century stage, the author (Alfredo Guimarães) reminds us the general form of the cross (guard) that swords were developing since the carolingian cicle, enlarging and later stabilizing, giving symbolic character to the insignia of western christian knights and promoting, in a significant manner, their baptism (1).

In a footnote:
(1) " El nombre que se daba a la espada en el bautismo, lo guardaba toda la vida. La de Carlomagno se llamaba Joyeuse, la de Roldan, Aurandal, la de Renato, Flambaut, la de Oliveros, Haute claire, la que el Cid conquistó alo rey moro de Valencia se llamaba Tizona, y la que obtuvo del Conde de Barcelona, Collada. Asi eran particularisadas" -Pompeyo Gener
(Pompeyo Gener seems to be a Spanish authority in edged weapons)

Need translation, Jim? If so, just tell.

Fernando

Jim McDougall · 12th February 2009, 01:51 AM

There you are Fernando!!!
You seem to have a lot of 'precious old books'!! and as I have always said, they are goldmines of esoterica and important references concerning these weapons typically not found in the more readily available corpus of arms books.

Yes, by all means, your translation of that note, puulleeze!!

All the best,
Jim

migueldiaz · 12th February 2009, 05:32 AM

The excerpts below from Spanish arms and armour, being a historical and descriptive account of the Royal Armoury of Madrid (1907) will be my humble

contribution to this very interesting topic!

What surprised me in browsing the said book is the dearth of info on the colada and the tizona. Perhaps somebody can tell us the 'inside story' there?

By the way, thanks to Gonzalo for referring me to the LINK from where the book (45 mb) can be downloaded.

What would I do without you guys?!

fernando · 12th February 2009, 01:21 PM

Let me try. Castillian speakers, don't hit me

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

" El nombre que se daba a la espada en el bautismo, lo guardaba toda la vida. La de Carlomagno se llamaba Joyeuse, la de Roldan, Aurandal, la de Renato, Flambaut, la de Oliveros, Haute claire, la que el Cid conquistó alo rey moro de Valencia se llamaba Tizona, y la que obtuvo del Conde de Barcelona, Collada. Asi eran particularisadas"

.

"The name given to a sword in its baptism, was kept for all life. That of Charlemagne was called Joyeuse, that of Roldan, Aurandal, that of Renato, Flambaut, that of Oliver (the Dane) Haute claire, the one that el Cid conquered from the moor King in Valencia was called Tizona, and the one that he obtained from the count of Barcelona, Collada. In this way they were particularised."

As i said, nothing new, just a confirmation of what is vastly divulged.

Fernando

Jim McDougall · 12th February 2009, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Let me try. Castillian speakers, don't hit me

.

.

"The name given to a sword in its baptism, was kept for all life. That of Charlemagne was called Joyeuse, that of Roldan, Aurandal, that of Renato, Flambaut, that of Oliver (the Dane) Haute claire, the one that el Cid conquered from the moor King in Valencia was called Tizona, and the one that he obtained from the count of Barcelona, Collada. In this way they were particularised."

As i said, nothing new, just a confirmation of what is vastly divulged.

Fernando

Thank you so much Fernando!
Actually it is great to see this translated before me, as I have been here most of the night instead of sleeping...which was impossible with paladins charging back and forth in my head!

I have been wading through this maddening sea of literary folklore for hours, and these sword names are really confused or confusing or both.

Charlemagnes sword was indeed Joyeuse, and again it is described with what seems to derive from metallurgical metaphor...."...never was there a sword to match it, its color changed thirty times a day".
Again, who has it? Some say it was buried with him, some say it was held at St.Denys Basilica then taken to the Louvre, some say it is in the Imperial Treasury at Vienna.

But then, another of Charlemagnes sword was 'flamberge' or 'floberge' (=flame cutter), but noted that this 'name/term' was used for Rinaldo's and Maugis' swords also.
In another note Rinaldo's sword is named Frusberta. (?)

Hauteclere, the sword of Oliver, who was another of Charlemagnes paladins, along with Rinaldo, and of course Roland.

The 'Dane' was known as 'Ogier the Dane' (Holger Danske) one of Charlemagnes vassals, and whose sword was Curtana......the name of course later applied to other swords. It is also noted that 'Courtain' (=short sword)was but one of Ogier's swords, the other was named 'Sauvigne'. Perhaps here again, like Tizona and Colada being single and two hand swords, these were types as well?
Incidentally, inscribed on 'Curtana' it is inscribed on the blade:
"...my name is Curtana, of the same steel and temper as Joyuese and Durandal".

Which brings us to 'Durandal' which was the sword of Roland, as mentioned previously, but Charlemagnes 'right hand' paladin.
This sword is afforded even more romantic allusion, and described as having previously been owned by Hector of Troy, and won from the giant Jutmundus. Added to this mythology for the blade, the hilt was said to have contained a thread from the cloak of the Virgin Mary; tooth of St. Peter; a hair of St. Denys and a drop of St. Basils blood.

In battle when Roland was mortally wounded he desperately tried to break Durandal, but the sound sword would not break, so he 'threw it into a poisoned stream' so as not to fall into enemy hands.

So there is the bedlam of my sleepless night, the naming of swords and thier allusions which are becoming my delusions!!

All the best,
Jim

Roland_M · 13th February 2018, 02:20 PM

According to my sources, the blade contains a large ammount of damascus-steel.

I'm relatively sure, it was forbidden to export damascus-steel raw material in these times(!).

So it is possible, that Tizona was forged in India or maybe Iran and later conquerred, bought by or given as a present to Europeans.

The sword got two inscriptions:
IO SOI TISONA FUE FECHA EN LA ERA DE MILE QUARENTA
"I'm Tizona, made in the year 1040"

and

AVE MARIA ~ GRATIA PLENA ~ DOMINUS TECUM
"Hail Mary ~ Full of grace ~ The Lord is with thee

Roland

Reventlov · 13th February 2018, 08:38 PM

Hi Roland,
May I ask what sources are you referring to? To the best of my knowledge, the only study of the (Falces) Tizona's metallurgy is that performed by Antonio Jose Criado and his team, which concluded "the blade was forged from low-carbon steel, and subsequently a surface layer... was produced by carburizing." Alan Williams has written that this metallic structure "differs little from many other examples of medieval swords, axes, and knives... such a blade might have been produced almost anywhere in Europe over a thousand years from Roman to Early Modern times."

According to family tradition the sword was a gift from King Ferdinand, which is plausible, but there is apparently no (surviving) evidence to corroborate this story. As mentioned in my article (and by Gonzalo above), the earliest source that confirms that the sword was owned by the marquis of Falces is Prudencio de Sandoval, in a chronicle published in 1615. Sandoval saw the sword in person, but instead reports that he was told it had been directly inherited from El Cid by the kings of Navarre, then given to an unnamed family ancestor. This version is not believable in itself, but it does not exactly bolster the case for the traditional story...

best,
Mark

Criado et al, "Metallographic study of the steel blade of the sword Tizona," Praktische Metallographie (2000).
Williams, "Science and fakery: the limitations of science in the analysis of arms and armour," Journal of the Arms and Armour Society (2006).

Roland_M · 14th February 2018, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reventlov

Hi Roland,
May I ask what sources are you referring to?

Oh I afraid, my source is nothing compared to yours. Here is a direct translation from ... German Wikipedia

:

"Tizona, according to legend, was captured in battle by a Moorish captain named Malik Bukar. The medieval heroic epic on the Cid reports that he later presented the sword to his daughter's husband as a wedding present. After this had mistreated the young woman and was killed by his father-in-law in the court fight, the Cid took Tizona back and later gave his nephew Pedro Bermúdez.

The sword is 103 cm long and 1.1 kg heavy, the blade alone measures 78.5 cm in length and is 4.5 cm wide. Traditionally, Tizona is believed to have been forged in Córdoba. The blade also contains a considerable amount of Damascus steel.
According to the opinion of the University Complutense Madrid, the sword comes from the time of the Cid and is of high quality."

Best wishes,
Roland

I dont know, what the wikipedia-definition of damascus steel is. If I read the German Wikipedia-article about damascus steel, they show pictures of a modern pattern welded folder.

Reventlov · 14th February 2018, 02:13 PM

Sadly, on this topic Wikipedia is not reliable... in any language!

Roland_M · 14th February 2018, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reventlov

Sadly, on this topic Wikipedia is not reliable... in any language!

Sure, I'm with you.

here I found a more reliable and pretty interesting source of the background of different sword-names in English (including Tizona):
https://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/am...tr/i2_1_1.html

Tizona means "Burning stick" or "Firebrand".

12th February 2009, 12:27 AM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Swords baptism - a fashion from the period. I know this is not news, neither it will "heat or cool" the situation, but i would like to mention it, if you don't mind. In a precious old book that i am lucky to have ,dedicated to the edged weapons collection of the Viscount of Pindela, the introduction covers the evolution of the Portuguese (Peninsular) sword. At the X century stage, the author (Alfredo Guimarães) reminds us the general form of the cross (guard) that swords were developing since the carolingian cicle, enlarging and later stabilizing, giving symbolic character to the insignia of western christian knights and promoting, in a significant manner, their baptism (1). In a footnote: (1) " El nombre que se daba a la espada en el bautismo, lo guardaba toda la vida. La de Carlomagno se llamaba Joyeuse, la de Roldan, Aurandal, la de Renato, Flambaut, la de Oliveros, Haute claire, la que el Cid conquistó alo rey moro de Valencia se llamaba Tizona, y la que obtuvo del Conde de Barcelona, Collada. Asi eran particularisadas" -*Pompeyo Gener* (Pompeyo Gener seems to be a Spanish authority in edged weapons) Need translation, Jim? If so, just tell. Fernando

12th February 2009, 05:32 AM	#7
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	The excerpts below from Spanish arms and armour, being a historical and descriptive account of the Royal Armoury of Madrid (1907) will be my humble contribution to this very interesting topic! What surprised me in browsing the said book is the dearth of info on the colada and the tizona. Perhaps somebody can tell us the 'inside story' there? By the way, thanks to Gonzalo for referring me to the LINK from where the book (45 mb) can be downloaded. What would I do without you guys?! Attached Images

10th February 2009, 05:33 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Excellent Gonzalo! Beautiful dissertation, and exactly what I had hoped for, a direct rebuttal that does exactly what you noted, sticking to the facts. The material I presented was a compilation of excerpts from a wide range of resources, many of which clearly carry the 'spin' syndrome. Considering the very nature of both of these swords, being represented as artifacts reverently associated with a virtual national treasure and heroic figure of this stature, the chances of 'clear title' and unbroken ownership is unlikely at best. I think this is a subject encountered with most, if not virtually all, weapons of such monumental importance, in all cultures and in some cases, religions. We know that in the most classic case, there has been considerable and most troublesome issue concerning like analysis of the Swords of the Prophet Mohammed, which reside, again reverently, in a museum. It would seem that they, like the swords of the Cid, were probably remounted in later times, much as many swords in use were, into styles more in fashion of newer times and done with great respect. In many other instances, there are cases where the weapons once held by profound historical figures are sought after, or if in place, constantly scrutinized by historical revisionists. In cases where national pride or that of any elite institutions integrity is challenged or in any way threatened, of course there are sensitive issues. The swords Tizona and Colada clearly fall into such category, and in the turbulence of history, of course changed hands numerous times. The reason I brought up the rather nebulous reference from the letters of an apparantly prominent figure of the 19th century, suggesting theft and switching of the sword, and the rather shameful 'deaccession' of the museums holdings after the fire was to emphasize such possibilities. I think Gonzalo has presented some much more secure references documenting likely changes in the holding of these weapons, and reviewing these references will likely present more thorough likelihood of the validity of claims to authenticity. Actually, this is exactly what the museums should be doing, if they have not already done so. I especially like the reference to the literal meaning of 'colada' and my efforts in discovering the translated meaning gave me 'strained' and of course enough silly references to the drink to give me call for a more stiff one! I think it is great to see that in both cases, the exotic sounding names for these swords were directly inspired metallurgically, something else which seems to have escaped the copy writers discussing the legends of El Cid. With Colada, the term 'cast', and I earlier noted, the acero colada process of producing pure alloyed steel, noted in the 17th century reference. It seems that Gonzalo has very nicely linked this supporting information and the fact that Barcelona, known for such metallurgical processes may have been the place where Colada was made. With the swords alleged provenance coming from a Barcelona noble, this does present good historical data, regardless of whether it applies directly to the actual sword representing Colada or not. Returning to Tizona, the references to the literal meaning of the word; coal, burnt, burnt stick and firebrand, also present intriguing metallurgical reference suggesting the carburizing of steel. The 'damascus' term often seen applied in historical references is typically not to be taken literally, as it is often much too broadly used for serious reference. The term in this parlance can often mean anything from a well forged blade, to actual watered steel to even more remotely, a sword actually made in Damascus (unlikely as this had been more a trade center than manufacturing center since Tamerlane's time). The interesting results of the scientific tests of the incumbent Tizona seem to be represented quite differently depending on who is recounting them. While one reference states the blade is in fact from 11th century, specifically Cordoba ; the other claims 14th to 15th century with no other specifics . I wonder if the actual documentation of the tests are obtainable ? In all, completely fascinating, and I hope worthy of more discussion from anyone who has serious interest in not only Spanish history, but in important historical weapons held in museums. Thank you so much Gonzalo. All the best, Jim

10th February 2009, 11:02 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Just wanted to add more concerning the naming of Tizona and Colada: "...swords were named after thier place of production, or at least supposed place of production. There were qala'i from a site in central Arabia or Iraq or Malaysia, Diyafi swords from Iraq, Baylamani from Baylaman which was either in Yemen or India and Mushrafi, from a site which was also either in Yemen or Syria. It is a curious characteristic of these names that the places are so uncertain , which suggests that even by the earliest Islamic times the names referred to types rather than places of production". "The Armies of the Caliphs" Hugh Kennedy, N.Y. 2001 p.173 With Islamic swords, they were of course held in the highest reverence, much the same as in European parlance from the swords of the Vikings into the age of chivalry. There was great attention put toward the steel in the blade and its forging, and the Arabs often used metaphoric and poetic descriptions, such as "...the sword drank the water" (op.cit. p.174) referring to the tempering. In the 9th century, al-Kindi, in his treatise on swords was particularly interested in the patterning in the steel in the blades, often using the term 'jauhar' (=jewel) in referencing watered steel. After discovering the metallurgic nature seeming to be associated with the references to Tizona and Colada, it is interesting to consider the possibility that these name/terms might have been applied to more than these two swords alone. While the passage I have quoted clearly refers to the Islamic practice of naming swords, the culture in which El Cid lived and fought was in Moorish Spain, and the practice would seem to have been well in place. The references to the swords in later literary references to El Cid may well have reiterated the names or terms applied to his swords in earlier accounts. Perhaps later references reflecting swords in inventories included swords called by the term (?) and not distinctly 'the' Tizona or 'Colada' (?) I am only suggesting this as a possibility that should be considered in references to these resources, emphasizing this is only a thought. In the study of often seen sword markings, it has been suggested that the 'makers' names inscribed or stamped in the blades such as 'ANDREA FERARA' or 'SAHAGUM' may well be brands or types of swords. This thought pertains to the superb marketing and commercialism of Solingen in using favored names of earlier makers to appeal to certain client groups. In earlier times, the Franks were also keenly aware of quality marking, and the famed and mysterious 'ULFBERHT' swords seem to have been marked in this sense as well. Best regards, Jim

10th February 2009, 11:49 PM	#3
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Jim, I am under the impression that the naming of swords was also used by the europeans, but I am unable to ensure it comes from an islamic influence. The name "Tizona", as you noted, could mean a burning coal stick, and it could poetically designate something like a terrible burning sword. Tizón is the part of a branch burnt to the point of an ardent coal. It has another meanings, but not appliable. I wouldn´t use it as a reference to a forged vs a casted sword, as the word has no metallurgical implications in castilian languaje (several other languajes were spoken on the teritory of actual Spain, and I think Celtan speaks one of them, which is more near to the portuguese than to the castilian).

11th February 2009, 05:05 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	The naming of swords seems to have been a practice of the times in general, and the references were with regard to what seems to have been the source of the names applied. With the European swords, it seems that the practice was known among the Vikings (N.Europe) in the sense that they often used heroic or powerful names and phrases to refer to not only thier swords, but axes and other arms as well. The totemic associations taken by warriors seem to have in some degree come into the equation, as with the berserks (bears etc.) but what is most interesting, and does seem to be somewhat in accord with what I was suggesting with the Islamic swords, are references to dragons or snakes as pertaining to the Viking swords. As described by Oakeshott in his venerable "The Archaeology of Weapons" the snake allegory refers to the imagery of the pattern welded blades, whose patterning from the manner in which they are forged recalls the skin of the snake, also wonderfully described by Dr.Lee Jones in his "The Serpent in the Blade". Here, once again, are references to metallurgic characteristics used in reference to swords, whether in naming them, or in describing them. This artful and poetic analogy often lent well to the romantic literature that became popularly known, and has come through the ages in classic literature. Perhaps, as I was noting earlier, the names of Tizona and Colada, may have been loosely applied to contemporary swords referring to the style in which the blade was made, or again, where it was made. It seems that I have seen references that refer to 'the tizona' or 'the colada' , which suggest possibly a descriptive term rather than specifically a singular entity. The tizona term, as noted, has varying reference to burned wood, etc. and also of course might have been applied artistically as in 'the flaming sword'. The colada term apparantly has numerous connotations but the two I found both applied to metallurgic characteristics. I am not sure whether these clearly different terms might have been used to define blades manufactured differently, but the possibility seems worthy of consideration. Naturally semantics, varying dialects and archaic application might all be conflicting in trying to determine how this may have been intended. It does remain interesting that the interpretation of the names does suggest some possibility that these were descriptive terms rather than names for specific swords, which would still help in better understanding the references to them in the literature. I think this is important in evaluating the cases for the existing swords representing these extremely important artifacts. Excellent observations Gonzalo!! I am really intrigued by this topic, and its great to have you join me in discussing this. All the best, Jim

12th February 2009, 01:51 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	There you are Fernando!!! You seem to have a lot of 'precious old books'!! and as I have always said, they are goldmines of esoterica and important references concerning these weapons typically not found in the more readily available corpus of arms books. Yes, by all means, your translation of that note, puulleeze!! All the best, Jim

13th February 2018, 02:20 PM	#10
Roland_M Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 525	According to my sources, the blade contains a large ammount of damascus-steel. I'm relatively sure, it was forbidden to export damascus-steel raw material in these times(!). So it is possible, that Tizona was forged in India or maybe Iran and later conquerred, bought by or given as a present to Europeans. The sword got two inscriptions: IO SOI TISONA FUE FECHA EN LA ERA DE MILE QUARENTA "I'm Tizona, made in the year 1040" and AVE MARIA ~ GRATIA PLENA ~ DOMINUS TECUM "Hail Mary ~ Full of grace ~ The Lord is with thee Roland

13th February 2018, 08:38 PM	#11
Reventlov Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 138	Hi Roland, May I ask what sources are you referring to? To the best of my knowledge, the only study of the (Falces) Tizona's metallurgy is that performed by Antonio Jose Criado and his team, which concluded "the blade was forged from low-carbon steel, and subsequently a surface layer... was produced by carburizing." Alan Williams has written that this metallic structure "differs little from many other examples of medieval swords, axes, and knives... such a blade might have been produced almost anywhere in Europe over a thousand years from Roman to Early Modern times." According to family tradition the sword was a gift from King Ferdinand, which is plausible, but there is apparently no (surviving) evidence to corroborate this story. As mentioned in my article (and by Gonzalo above), the earliest source that confirms that the sword was owned by the marquis of Falces is Prudencio de Sandoval, in a chronicle published in 1615. Sandoval saw the sword in person, but instead reports that he was told it had been directly inherited from El Cid by the kings of Navarre, then given to an unnamed family ancestor. This version is not believable in itself, but it does not exactly bolster the case for the traditional story... best, Mark Criado et al, "Metallographic study of the steel blade of the sword Tizona," Praktische Metallographie (2000). Williams, "Science and fakery: the limitations of science in the analysis of arms and armour," Journal of the Arms and Armour Society (2006).

14th February 2018, 02:13 PM	#13
Reventlov Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 138	Sadly, on this topic Wikipedia is not reliable... in any language!