Bollock / Ballock dagger

fearn · 1st February 2009, 10:08 PM

Atlantia,

I've got to admire both your class and your restraint. But yeah, that handle is kind of ugly, ain't it?

Here's my dissection.

1) Is there anything to indicate that it's 1700? Hmmm. Not really.

2) Is there anything to indicate it might be later? Well, on the eBay posting, there are those interesting fused "pearls" in the sheath (7 pics down). On the other hand, it's old enough to have lost a bunch of decorative stones, had the leather worn down and picked up a patina. Hmmm. I'd guess it's at least 100 years old, but that's without handling it.

3) what's with that hilt, anyway? Despite what the seller claims, I'm not sure that the outside is wood inlaid with bone. It looks like it might be some sort of resin, with the bone stuck in. I'm not used to wood cracking the way this one is. perhaps it's old pitch? Again, hmmm.

4) The runes. I agree that they're not in a runic alphabet. I also think they were scratched on later, when the blade was assembled, and either by someone with no artistic talent, or by someone using a long knife to scribe the bone, someone who was holding this knife in one hand and the scriber in another, or all three. This certainly doesn't eliminate occult practices, by a long shot, as many occultists aren't great shakes in the art department, and for some ritual reason, someone could have decided to scribe the hilt with a sword or with some other magical tool that wasn't well adapted to the purpose.

5) The pommel. Most European pagans are into four-fold symmetry these days, and I'd expect to see a 4 or 8 sided pommel. Older magic tends towards 12 (as in 12 Olympians, 12 houses in the zodiac, etc). That ten sided starburst is interesting. Could mean that it's old, could mean that the maker liked it and decided to include it. Symbolic? Not in an obvious way.

6) The words on the sheath. Here's the weird one. Look at the eighth picture in the line, which I've copied below and rotated 90 degrees (hope the seller doesn't mind the reposting). To my eyes, that sure looks like "M NI PADME HUM" as in "OM MANI PADME HUM." What do you guys think? If I'm right, that's a really ODD thing to find on the sheath of a 17th century GERMAN dagger. Not impossible, of course, but... come on. That's the english transliteration of a mantra from Buddhism, specifically of the boddhisatva of compassion, Avalokiteshvara (who is thought to be incarnated in the Dalai Lama, by the way). Interesting how it's connected with some sort of snake-like design. Even more interesting that it's on a knife sheath.

I'd suspect that it's a younger piece, perhaps from the end of the 19th Century, but not later than c. 1950. This is based on the materials (I get suspicious about resin-coated handles and odd fake "pearls"), and the lack of modern occult symbolism. I can believe that it's some occultist's object, given the runes, the mantra, the overall quality of construction, etc. Whoever made it is pretty obviously not a Buddhist, and pretty obviously not a runemaster either.

My 0.0002 cents,

F

1st February 2009, 10:08 PM	#7
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Atlantia, I've got to admire both your class and your restraint. But yeah, that handle is kind of ugly, ain't it? Here's my dissection. 1) Is there anything to indicate that it's 1700? Hmmm. Not really. 2) Is there anything to indicate it might be later? Well, on the eBay posting, there are those interesting fused "pearls" in the sheath (7 pics down). On the other hand, it's old enough to have lost a bunch of decorative stones, had the leather worn down and picked up a patina. Hmmm. I'd guess it's at least 100 years old, but that's without handling it. 3) what's with that hilt, anyway? Despite what the seller claims, I'm not sure that the outside is wood inlaid with bone. It looks like it might be some sort of resin, with the bone stuck in. I'm not used to wood cracking the way this one is. perhaps it's old pitch? Again, hmmm. 4) The runes. I agree that they're not in a runic alphabet. I also think they were scratched on later, when the blade was assembled, and either by someone with no artistic talent, or by someone using a long knife to scribe the bone, someone who was holding this knife in one hand and the scriber in another, or all three. This certainly doesn't eliminate occult practices, by a long shot, as many occultists aren't great shakes in the art department, and for some ritual reason, someone could have decided to scribe the hilt with a sword or with some other magical tool that wasn't well adapted to the purpose. 5) The pommel. Most European pagans are into four-fold symmetry these days, and I'd expect to see a 4 or 8 sided pommel. Older magic tends towards 12 (as in 12 Olympians, 12 houses in the zodiac, etc). That ten sided starburst is interesting. Could mean that it's old, could mean that the maker liked it and decided to include it. Symbolic? Not in an obvious way. 6) The words on the sheath. Here's the weird one. Look at the eighth picture in the line, which I've copied below and rotated 90 degrees (hope the seller doesn't mind the reposting). To my eyes, that sure looks like "M NI PADME HUM" as in "OM MANI PADME HUM." What do you guys think? If I'm right, that's a really ODD thing to find on the sheath of a 17th century GERMAN dagger. Not impossible, of course, but... come on. That's the english transliteration of a mantra from Buddhism, specifically of the boddhisatva of compassion, Avalokiteshvara (who is thought to be incarnated in the Dalai Lama, by the way). Interesting how it's connected with some sort of snake-like design. Even more interesting that it's on a knife sheath. I'd suspect that it's a younger piece, perhaps from the end of the 19th Century, but not later than c. 1950. This is based on the materials (I get suspicious about resin-coated handles and odd fake "pearls"), and the lack of modern occult symbolism. I can believe that it's some occultist's object, given the runes, the mantra, the overall quality of construction, etc. Whoever made it is pretty obviously not a Buddhist, and pretty obviously not a runemaster either. My 0.0002 cents, F Attached Images Last edited by fearn; 2nd February 2009 at 01:23 AM.